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Old 02-01-2006, 07:17 PM   #46
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Originally posted by Justin24
I have been to mosques and talked witht the people there and said in the middle east, a homosexual person would face death.

Where does it say in all the religous Texts that Homosexual marriage should be allowed. I just want to know. I think it should be allowed, by civil union.
Again, deflecting to Muslims....

Do you honsestly believe that there is enough political clout in America for them to have any effect at all on this issue?

As for religion........

There ARE and WERE Christian marriage ceremonies created thousands of years ago for this purpose.
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Old 02-01-2006, 07:19 PM   #47
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Again, deflecting to Muslims....

Do you honsestly believe that there is enough political clout in America for them to have any effect at all on this issue?

As for religion........

There ARE and WERE Christian marriage ceremonies created thousands of years ago for this purpose.
Show some proof on that. Well look what happened in France the Muslim community was tired of being persicuted by the French so they rioted, what make you think they can have a voice in this matter.
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Old 02-01-2006, 07:19 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally posted by Justin24
I have been to mosques and talked witht the people there and said in the middle east, a homosexual person would face death.

Where does it say in all the religous Texts that Homosexual marriage should be allowed. I just want to know. I think it should be allowed, by civil union.
No matter what a religious text says, it shouldn't matter. That's the beauty of a secular society. If we're going to go on the "slippery slope" argument, if we're going to start basing laws on the Bible, then why not start basing laws on the Koran? This could realistically happen in the future, as Islam is one of the fastest growing religions in America. Plus, if I drive an hour or so north of here, I run into the largest population of Arabs outside of the Middle East. They could easily start passing Sharia laws in their local communities and apply it to the Christian minority if it so pleased.

At least most Muslim nations have the sense to exempt non-Muslims from their laws, whereas Christian countries generally don't give a fuck about religious diversity and blanketly apply its religious-based law on everyone.

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Old 02-01-2006, 07:20 PM   #49
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Show some proof on that. Well look what happened in France the Muslim community was tired of being persicuted by the French so they rioted, what make you think they can have a voice in this matter.
When you begin to answer my questions.....I will take you serious enough to answer yours.....but right now I am going to spend time with my children.
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Old 02-01-2006, 07:22 PM   #50
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Originally posted by melon


whereas Christian countries generally don't give a fuck about religious diversity and blanketly apply its religious-based law on everyone.

Melon
Not all Christians are like that, and since Muslims have more freedom that what they had in the middle east I dont think they wount inact those laws.
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Old 02-01-2006, 07:23 PM   #51
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When you begin to answer my questions.....I will take you serious enough to answer yours.....but right now I am going to spend time with my children.
I did answer your question. Just because you have no proof on that you hide.
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Old 02-01-2006, 07:26 PM   #52
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I did answer your question. Just because you have no proof on that you hide.
Interesting...

You clearly have not been here long enough to know that I have always backed up my positions....

But I respond even less to childish 12 year old taunts.
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Old 02-01-2006, 07:30 PM   #53
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It's not a taunt. Just that you still have yet to show proof.
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Old 02-01-2006, 07:30 PM   #54
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Originally posted by Dreadsox
There ARE and WERE Christian marriage ceremonies created thousands of years ago for this purpose.
Studying the first millennium of the Christian church (as I know you've studied some) is quite fascinating in this respect. Sts. Sergius and Bacchus (saints in both the Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches) were portrayed as lovers in their earliest stories.

The Orthodox church went so far as to create a same-sex union rite that was exclusive to men (likely because women were nothing but property in these days):

Quote:
15. BELGRADE [date uncertain; before the 18t century] [Serbian Slavonic]

The Order of Celebrating the Union of Two Men

i
The priest shall place the right hand of the elder upon the holy Gospel and upon that of the younger. Then: Blessed be God, now and forever and ever. Amen……

ii
Our father who art in heaven …..

iii
Hymn of he church …

iv
Then shall the priest take the holy belt and tie it around them. And they that are about to be joined shall hold the holy belt in their left hands.

v
O lord, Our God, who hast vouchased unto us the promise of salvation …accept Thou these thy two servants, N. and N. who love each other with a love of the spirit, and have desired to come into thy holy church, and grant unto them hope, unashamed faithfulness and true love….

vi
..Thou also didst deem it proper for the holy martyrs Serge and Bacchus to be united….Bless Thou these thy servants. Grant unto them grace and prosperity, and faith and love; let them love each other without envy and without temptation all the days of their life….

vii
…For these thy servants [and] for their being joined unto each other, we beseech Thee, O Lord. That the Lord our God unite them in perfect love and inseparable life, we bessech Thee, O Lord. For the presanctified gift of the precious Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, that they receive it without sin and that it preserve their union without envy, we beseech Thee, O Lord.

ix
[The First Epistle of] the Apostle Paul to the Corinthians….. Though I speak with the tongues of men and angels, and have not love, I am as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

xi
Then: Peace be with you. Then shall the priest kiss them. And the two that are to be joined shall kiss each other.

xx
…And he shall dismiss them.
Quote:
10. SIANI 966 [thirteenth century] [Greek]

Order for Solemnization of Same-Sex Union

i
Those intending to be united shall come before the priest….shall place his hand on the Gospel, and the second on the hand of the first…

iv
Lord our God and ruler….who didst commend the union of thy holy martyrs Serge and Bacchus…do Thou vouchsafe unto these thy servants grace to love one another and abide unhated and not a cause of scandal all the days of their lives…

v
…Grant them unashamed faithfulness, true love….

vi
…accept now these Thy servants N. and N to be united in spirit and faith…to prosper in virtue and justice and in sincere love…

vii
…that they be joined together more in spirit than in flesh…

ix
And they shall kiss the holy Gospel and each other, and it shall be concluded.
Homophobic interpretations of the Bible start becoming predominant around the time of St. Thomas Aquinas. But this must be taken into the context that they were against pleasure and pain of all kind. Having pleasure during sex even when married was a sin (and, of course, it begs the question as to how they expected men to have sex without pleasure, but these were the days before American "slash and burn" circumcision), and homosexual relations were seen as especially evil because it was seen as the most hedonistic form of sex, since it could not result in procreation.

However, medieval Europe was a funny place. Laws against same-sex relations were generally only enforced upon the middle classes, with the wealthy classes openly having same-sex relations (and studying the history of the papacy is VERY interesting in this respect).

Modern homophobia generally comes from Sigmund Freud, actually. Victorian mores, while repressive by modern standards, allowed for open affection for people of the same-sex, even if they likely never acted upon it sexually. Freud, of course, saw it all as perverted and found such affection to be a mental illness, and that's really where modern society gets its disgust for homosexuality. The Bible is just used (even if completely incorrectly) to justify those prejudices.

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Old 02-01-2006, 07:33 PM   #55
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It's not a taunt. Just that you still have yet to show proof.
Make sure to read what I just wrote above to answer this request.

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Old 02-01-2006, 07:34 PM   #56
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The problem with that is, it is not coming from god, but from man on same sex union.

Thanks Melon. Interesting reading.
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Old 02-01-2006, 07:40 PM   #57
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Originally posted by Justin24
The problem with that is, it is not coming from god, but from man on same sex union.

Thanks Melon. Interesting reading.
Quote:
1 Samuel 18:1-4

[1] And it came to pass, when he had made an end of speaking unto Saul, that the soul of Jonathan was knit with the soul of David, and Jonathan loved him as his own soul.
[2] And Saul took him that day, and would let him go no more home to his father's house.
[3] Then Jonathan and David made a covenant, because he loved him as his own soul.
[4] And Jonathan stripped himself of the robe that was upon him, and gave it to David, and his garments, even to his sword, and to his bow, and to his girdle.
"Covenant" has been thrown around a lot lately by the Religious Right to create "covenant marriages" that are harder to obtain legal divorces.

It is also theorized that the meeting of the Centurion and his "slave" was really the story of a centurion and his lover. It would not have been unheard of in the Roman Empire. What is unheard of in the Roman Empire is a Roman citizen giving a rat's ass about a slave he wasn't having sex with. A later Roman emperor after Jesus' death ended up making a god out of his lover/slave when he died. The important point here is that Jesus did not condemn the centurion or expect his behavior to change, if his relationship with his slave was sexual, as would have been presumed during the Roman Empire.

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Old 02-01-2006, 07:47 PM   #58
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Why was nothing written about what Jesus opinion on this? What about Sodom and Gamora. People sinning left and right both in hetro and homosexuality, that god smited them by sending down his angels and destroyed the city. Or is that more of a Roman Tale?
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Old 02-01-2006, 07:49 PM   #59
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that is one messed up story


what father would offer up his virgin daughters to be raped by a wild mob?
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Old 02-01-2006, 07:57 PM   #60
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Why was nothing written about what Jesus opinion on this? What about Sodom and Gamora. People sinning left and right both in hetro and homosexuality, that god smited them by sending down his angels and destroyed the city. Or is that more of a Roman Tale?
Sodom and Gomorrah is not about sexuality in the slightest. It is about the violation of an ancient Jewish hospitality custom. The greatest insult then was to abuse/kill a person's houseguest.

The story of Sodom and Gomorrah is repeated in the book of Judges, but the city is now Gibeah and the crowd gang rapes and dismembers a female concubine. God then commands an army to destroy Gibeah. Does this mean that God disapproves of all sex with women?

If there is any sexual interpretation to Sodom and Gomorrah, it is that God detests rape. Of course, Mosaic Law prescribes that a rapist is to marry his victim after paying 50 silver shekels to her father, but that's a whole different barrel of monkeys.

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