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Old 01-25-2006, 08:37 PM   #16
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Originally posted by VertigoGal
Allow a middle class to develop & hope it takes care of itself?...Ultimately I suppose it's up to the Chinese to demand their own freedom at least with the situation as it is now.
This is precisely the view of a great many political scientists specializing in China, actually--that freedom will come only if and when China's growing middle classes want it to come. Which they almost certainly will, given the interest (economic and otherwise) that sector typically has in free exchange of information.

Though to be fair to iron horse, that doesn't really constitute an adequate answer to the ethical questions involved in extending the benefits of ICTs to authoritarian governments, particularly where profits are involved.

Comparing them to the Nazis is quite a stretch though--it's probably not very helpful to see another Hitler in every government which engages in some amount of cutting its citizens off from the rest of the world; we should keep enough perspective to be able to analyze these dilemmas relative to the big picture. Which includes major human rights violations to be sure, but that's pretty far from genocide and besides, many aspects of China's human services, such as healthcare, have actually deteriorated atrociously since the advent of capitalism.
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Old 01-25-2006, 08:41 PM   #17
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"So where do we fight this battle?"
I don't know if it's our battle to fight. Like VertigoGal said, it's up to the Chinese to demand it's own freedoms. All we can do is support those actions.

Denying them a search engine surely isn't going to help...
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Old 01-25-2006, 08:49 PM   #18
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


I don't know if it's our battle to fight. Like VertigoGal said, it's up to the Chinese to demand it's own freedoms. All we can do is support those actions.

Denying them a search engine surely isn't going to help...


It is our battle, if we believe in freedom for all people.


*you can do things that can help change this crazy world*
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Old 01-25-2006, 08:57 PM   #19
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Originally posted by yolland


Though to be fair to iron horse, that doesn't really constitute an adequate answer to the ethical questions involved in extending the benefits of ICTs to authoritarian governments, particularly where profits are involved.
Yes...but at the same time, it's not like they're selling the Chinese army/police deadly weapons. The censorship may not directly advance their freedom but it's not a threat to it and any form of internet can only help in the long run, imo.

ps- I think we should have a doomsday thread on how the American middle class is rapidly deteriorating and any remnants of democracy will soon follow plunging us into a dark age.
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Old 01-25-2006, 09:02 PM   #20
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Originally posted by VertigoGal


Yes...but at the same time, it's not like they're selling the Chinese army/police deadly weapons. The censorship may not directly advance their freedom but it's not a threat to it and any form of internet can only help in the long run, imo.

ps- I think we should have a doomsday thread on how the American middle class is rapidly deteriorating and any remnants of democracy will soon follow plunging us into a dark age.


One thought, VertigoGal, it is scary how we seem to be so willing to jump into the brave new world.
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Old 01-25-2006, 09:07 PM   #21
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Funny you should bring that phrase up, I was just thinking maybe we could combine VertigoGal's doomsday proposal with financeguy's utopia/dystopia proposal and see where it goes. Google + Wal-Mart = not quite what Adam Smith and Max Weber had in mind...
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Old 01-25-2006, 09:09 PM   #22
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Originally posted by the iron horse




It is our battle, if we believe in freedom for all people.


*you can do things that can help change this crazy world*
Ok well then I guess I should ask you what Google should have done?
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Old 01-25-2006, 09:17 PM   #23
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Ok well then I guess I should ask you what Google should have done?

Thay should have said no.

That is my liberatarian opinion.


Freedom is a lot more important than $$$.
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Old 01-25-2006, 09:19 PM   #24
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Well unless A_W meant to say immoral, it would seem then that our respective resident libertarians disagree.
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Old 01-25-2006, 09:25 PM   #25
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Google deals in search engines, not political liberation campaigns. You can't expect them to liberate China, the people will have to do that. I'm sure it's illegal to mention Tibet on any site in China as well.
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Old 01-25-2006, 09:32 PM   #26
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Originally posted by the iron horse

Thay should have said no.
So no internet is better than censored internet?
So I guess you wouldn't do business with any country that wasn't a free democracy.

Maybe you should join Bush in his spreading agenda...


Quote:
Originally posted by the iron horse

That is my liberatarian opinion.
Your political affiliation has nothing to do with it...
Quote:
Originally posted by the iron horse


Freedom is a lot more important than $$$.
I agree. At the end of the day freedom is more important.

But if the power isn't in your hand, then what are you accomplishing by denying your business? Nothing.
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Old 01-25-2006, 09:37 PM   #27
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Oh, China's had the Internet for ten years now, BVS. Including Google access. It's just that before they had what was waggishly called the "Great Firewall," designed by the government, blocking selected types of search results. The difference is now, Google's extending them their own China-specific interface to do that with.
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Old 01-25-2006, 09:42 PM   #28
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Oh, China's had the Internet for ten years now, BVS. Including Google access. It's just that before they had what was waggishly called the "Great Firewall," designed by the government, blocking selected types of search results. The difference is now, Google's extending them their own China-specific interface to do that with.
I understand that. I meant that in a very generic way. As in if everyone was to use horse's logic and no outside business would work with China they essentially wouldn't have much of an internet.
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Old 01-25-2006, 10:00 PM   #29
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Ah well that's true. This is one of the things that's both exciting and unnerving about the accelerating spread of ICTs, actually--the various components needed to achieve full e-access are now distributed through so many different channels that there is no one readily controllable master diffuser of it all. Which makes for more freedom in some ways, yet for easier collaboration between some of the world's more suspect powers-that-be and ICT providers as well.

Sorry if I'm being here, this is a major research area for me right now so I'm quite caught up by all this.
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Old 02-03-2006, 09:36 AM   #30
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Originally posted by the iron horse



I'm not talking about some gorverment.

I am thinking about people.

What should we be doing then, to demand the freedom of all people to free speech and internet searches?
Join Amnesty, for instance...


the limitation of Internet is just one of the absurd thing going on in China...

Also Yahoo bent to the Government and violated the privacy of a dissenter, giving his address and details to the Chinese Autorithies. Is this fair?
I am not that sure of it...
(For details: www.amnesty.org)
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