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Old 10-09-2003, 03:33 AM   #31
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Klaus,


"Police dosn't kill without a proof. And in most cases i have seen Police dosn't accept colaterale damage or does bulldoze buildings of families of "evildoers""

Israel does not kill without proof. If they did, all the Palestinians would have been killed 3 decades ago. Israel has perhaps the best middle east intelligence network in the world, and they use it to go after the terrorist.

Police often react to situations that they see in front of them on the ground. Police do accept a certain level of colterale damage when ever they engage in chases to catch criminals engage, engage criminals in firefights and other things. The damage and loss of life to civilians can be even worse if they don't.

There is nothing wrong with bulldozing houses that are used as bases to later murder Israely childern. Terrorist cannot be allowed to have a haven anywhere.

"There would be far more resolutions against Israels action if the US wouldn't protect Israels behaviour with israels behaviour veto in the UN."

The US defends Israel's behavior because it is defensive and has prevented the Jews from being slaughtered by the millions like they were throughout Europe in the 1930s and 1940s.

"In the last peace-effort i can't remember that Israels government stopped their settlers, stoped building the wall in a terretory which was traditionally palestinensian or contributed anything other essential to the peace-process."

Israel agreed to the last settlement. In that Settelment they gave the Palestinians 96% of what they asked for. They were ready to completely stop all settlements and were ready to help a new Palestinian Government. The Palestinians rejected this as they have rejected EVERY PEACE PLAN SINCE 1948!
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Old 10-09-2003, 05:30 AM   #32
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Originally posted by STING2
Popmartijn,

Please name one UN resolution passed against Israel that the US Vetoed from being passed under Chapter VII rules. In fact can you name any UN resolution passed against Israel where there was ever a majority in the Security Council that wanted to pass it under Chapter VII rules? Please name the resolution.
You have not answered my question yet, but I do want to give you a few examples of (threat of) US vetoes. I haven't found out yet where I can see if the vetoes resolution was under Chapter VI or Chapter VII rules. Please also note (from the UN website):
http://www.un.org/Depts/dhl/resguide/scvote.htm
Quote:
When considering the issue of a negative vote cast by a permanent member of the Council, researchers must be aware that no official UN list of vetoes exists.

[...]

Parallel to the adopted resolutions, press releases and meeting records are also sources that can be consulted for research on this topic. The press release covering a Council meeting at which a draft resolution was vetoed furnishes a first (unofficial) account of the action immediately after the conclusion of the meeting.

Example:

Excerpts from press release SC/6345 providing an unofficial summary of the 3756th meeting of the Security Council on 21 March 1997 at which draft resolution S/1997/241 was not adopted due to the negative vote of a permament member of the Council

SECURITY COUNCIL AGAIN FAILS TO ADOPT RESOLUTION ON ISRAELI SETTLEMENT

Vote is 13-1-1, with United States Opposed; Would Have Demanded Halt to Construction at Jabal Abu Ghneim

Due to a negative vote by a permanent member, the United States, the Security Council this evening for the second time in two weeks failed to adopt a draft resolution on the Israeli construction of a new housing settlement in the Jabal Abu Ghneim area of East Jerusalem.

The draft text, which would have demanded Israel's immediate cessation of construction of the East Jerusalem settlement, received 13 votes in favour to 1 against (United States), with 1 abstention (Costa Rica).
(...)
Some more examples:
US vetoes Security Council resolution demanding Israel not deport Arafat
16 September The United States today vetoed a United Nations Security Council resolution specifically demanding that Israel not deport or threaten the safety of Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat.

http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2003/sc7875.doc.htm

And if you understand international politics then you know that even a threat of a veto is often enough not to go through with draft resolutions. As the UN Permanent Observer of Palestine noted in a speech in front of the General Assembly (during its 55th session):
Quote:
Unfortunately, a permanent member of the Security Council declared inside the Council and outside the United Nations that it would use its right to veto any resolution regardless of its content. This clearly prevented the Security Council from exercising its responsibility and from taking any action.
Although this speech does not explicitly name the USA, this is no secret based on the expressed attitude of the USA. This might also explain the hatred of the Arab world to the USA as it unconditionally supports everything Israel does and is not willing to call upon Israel under Chapter VII rules.

C ya!

Marty
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Old 10-09-2003, 06:23 AM   #33
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Quote:
Israel does not kill without proof. If they did, all the Palestinians would have been killed 3 decades ago. Israel has perhaps the best middle east intelligence network in the world, and they use it to go after the terrorist.

Quote:
Israel does not kill without proof. If they did, all the Palestinians would have been killed 3 decades
ago. Israel has perhaps the best
I see a difference between killing without proof and a complete genocide

Quote:
middle east intelligence network in the world, and they use it to go after the terrorist.
best intelligence network of the middle east would make sense to me, but the way you use the words make me wonder, please explain

Quote:
There is nothing wrong with bulldozing houses that are used as bases to later murder Israely childern. Terrorist cannot be allowed to have a haven anywhere.
They don't just bulldoze Bases, they generally Bulldoze houses of relatives of terrorists.
And i think just because a relative of you (or even a familymember) is a terrorist dosn't mean that you support them too.

Quote:
"There would be far more resolutions against Israels action if the US wouldn't protect Israels behaviour with israels behaviour veto in the UN."

The US defends Israel's behavior because it is defensive and has prevented the Jews from being slaughtered by the millions like they were throughout Europe in the 1930s and 1940s.
Most of the resolutions are droped if a country knows that another one will boycot them (last example Iraq war)

This hapened several times with resolutions against Israel too.
Popmartijn presented another example

Quote:
Israel agreed to the last settlement. In that Settelment they gave the Palestinians 96% of what they asked for. They were ready to completely stop all settlements and were ready to help a new Palestinian Government. The Palestinians rejected this as they have rejected EVERY PEACE PLAN SINCE 1948!
I have no problem with "the israelis" or "the palestinensians" in general. Just with some hardliners who try to escalete that conflict as much as they can, because they would be nothing without the conflict.

There are many Israelis and many palestinensians who want the peace

Quote:
The US defends Israel's behavior because it is defensive and has prevented the Jews from being slaughtered by the millions like they were throughout Europe in the 1930s and 1940s.
I think it's a good thing that the US and the EU support Israel. Especially Europe has a historic commitment.

But we can't close our eyes and accept massive human rights violations (including killing people without a trial) of the Israeli government

Klaus
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Old 10-09-2003, 06:21 PM   #34
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Popmartijn,

The UN Security Council has not passed resolutions against Israel under Chapter VII rules because the UN Security Council has not felt that Israel's actions are serious enough to warrent a Chapter VII ruling.

None of the information you presented shows the UN members attempting to pass a resolution under Chapter VII rules and having it blocked by the USA.

The Soviet Union and China have been willing to use their vetoes in the past as well.

Israel is nothing compared to Saddam's Iraq, and the United Nations knows and understands that which is the chief reason for the difference in the seriousness of the resolutions passed.

Israel is a democracy that has been attacked from the day of its independence from undemocratic governments ready to commit a Genocide worse than what happened in Europe in the 1930s and 1940s.

Israel is NOT the aggressor. It has been fighting for its very survival for 55 years now surounded by enemies that believe that targeting innocent civilians through suicide bombing is somehow a legitamite form of resistence.

There is no comparison between the naked aggression of a dictator like Saddam and the actions of a democraticly elected government of Israel to defend themselves from a worse genocide that what they experienced in Europe.

Thats why the UN has never passed resolutions against Israel under Chapter VII rules.
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Old 10-09-2003, 06:33 PM   #35
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Klaus,

Israel has the best middle east intelligence network in the world. They have a better idea on who is doing what and who is guilty and not guilty than any other intelligence service in the world when it comes to the middle east. Yes, even better than the USA.

Where is your evidence that proves Israel failed to prove this or that? Israel does not want to waste resources on taking out individuals that are not a threat to them. That would be stupid. The Israel intelligence services in not stupid and is the best in the world when it comes to middle eastern affairs.

"But we can't close our eyes and accept massive human rights violations (including killing people without a trial) of the Israeli government"

The Israely government is not committing mass human rights violations. This claim was leveled against the IDF at Jenin in 2002, and once the UN forensic teams investigated, it was found that 7,000 civilians were not killed. In fact, only 48 were killed, all of them accidents. Israel does not commit mass human rights abuses, if they did, all the Palestinians would have been killed decades ago.

I strongly question the EU's support of Israel. They all condemed Israel without any proof when the Jenin incident happened. The UN forensic teams proved that the European countries were wrong and that the Israely Defense Force was telling the truth.
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Old 10-10-2003, 06:45 AM   #36
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from ai

Quote:
28 September 2001
AI Index MDE 15/088/2001 - News Service Nr. 172
Israel/Occupied Territories : One year after the intifada-
The International community must fulfil its obligations

One year after the intifada began on 29 September 2000 Amnesty International called on the international community to take steps to end the human rights tragedy in Israel and the Occupied Territories.

"Over the past year there have been numerous investigations, by the United Nations, by the Mitchell Commission, by international and local human rights organizations. There is a remarkable consensus in the conclusions and recommendations of all these reports," said Amnesty International. "What is lacking is the will to implement them."

More than 570 Palestinians have been killed by Israeli security services, the vast majority unlawfully when the lives of others were not in danger. More than 150 Israelis have been killed by Palestinian armed groups or individuals including 115 civilians - whose killing is prohibited under international humanitarian law.[

Children are a high proportion of those killed: more than 150 Palestinian children and 30 Israeli children have been killed. Those maimed and wounded number more than 15,000.
"The lives which have been already taken away will never be restored; the deaths of so many are compounded by the shattered lives of the disabled, traumatised and those who have lost loved ones," said Amnesty International.

The Occupied Territories have become a land of barriers between town and town and between village and village. The great majority of the inhabitants of Gaza have been enclosed for years as though in a prison and Palestinians from the Occupied Territories are unable to enter Jerusalem without a permit.

"By denying a whole population the right to move, the Israeli authorities are not stopping the suicide bombers who can pass on foot. They are producing a population who are punished, who live under permanent siege and can see no future, no prospect of economic security, no meaning in education, no reason to stay alive."

The closures are a grave human rights violation and a collective punishment targeted against all Palestinians in the Occupied Territories for killings committed by a few.

In addition, more than 500 Palestinian homes have been demolished, for alleged ''security'' reasons or, in a discriminatory policy biased against Palestinians, because they lack planning permission. Israeli security services have arrested more than 1,500 Palestinians in Israel and the Occupied Territories since the intifada; there are reports of Palestinians kept for more than 40 days - and often for more than 20 days - in incommunicado detention without access to lawyers and methods of torture or other ill-treatment banned by a 1999 Supreme Court judgment are being frequently reported.

Palestinians are increasingly impoverished by the closures, traumatised by the killings and destruction; movement is dangerous and few feel that there can be any future, few look beyond the next week -the next day- the possibility of simply keeping alive.

Israelis, killed arbitrarily on roads in the Occupied Territories and by suicide bombs in towns in Israel also face fear, injury and trauma in their daily lives.''Yet the killings and other human rights violations should stop. The recommendations in every report, every commission of inquiry, have been similar'', said Amnesty International.

Amnesty International has made many calls for the Palestinian Authority and armed groups to act in accordance with humanitarian law.

But the organization emphasised that ''Israel has ratified and is a state party to the international human rights standards which, if implemented, would give a new life for the people of the region. A State is not allowed to wait for armed groups to stop violence; it has an obligation to act in accordance with its solemn promises.''

RECOMMENDATIONS

Most of these recommendations are included not only in Amnesty International's reports but also in the Mitchell Report, the United Nations Commission of Inquiry, and many other reports:

1. End Arbitrary Killings

- To Israel:
Lethal use of firearms should be ended except when strictly unavoidable to protect life;
extrajudicial executions must be prohibited; that reckless and random shooting at residential areas should stop; and to restore the value of human life every killing must be investigated, and perpetrators of unlawful killings brought to justice.

- To the Palestinian Authority:
Effective action should be taken to prohibit anyone under the PA authority from killing civilians; extrajudicial executions must be prohibited; to ensure respect for human life every killing of Palestinians or Israelis must be fully investigated and perpetrators of unlawful killings brought to justice.

- To armed groups: armed groups must respect fundamental principles of humanitarian law which prohibit the killing of civilians. Random shooting at residential areas must stop.

2. End Closures

- To Israel:
Barriers to free movement of Palestinians within the Occupied Territories, including East Jerusalem, should be removed.

3. Halt House Demolitions

- To Israel:
Israel should cease to carry out demolitions of houses as punishment or in reprisals. Outstanding demolition orders based on discriminatory policies should be cancelled and discriminatory policies ended.

4. Safeguard Detainees

- To Israel: Israel should ensure that all those arrested have their rights including prompt access to lawyers and family; the use of torture or other ill-treatment under interrogation must be ended; administrative detainees should be released unless they receive fair trial on criminal charges. Children should not be detained except as a measure of last resort and for the shortest appropriate time.

- To the Palestinian Authority: PA security services should end arbitrary arrests and the use of torture; all those arrested on political charges, including on charges of "collaboration," should be immediately released unless they receive fair trial on recognizably criminal charges before ordinary courts.

5. Restore International Standards

Amnesty International calls on the Israeli Government to implement in its policy the international human rights standards which the Israeli State has ratified.

The organization calls on the Palestinian Authority which has stated that it will abide by internationally recognized standards, to do so.

The organization calls on all Palestinian and Israeli armed groups to respect the fundamental principals contained in the Fourth Geneva Convention.

\ENDS
public document
****************************************
For more information please call Amnesty International's press office in London, UK, on +44 20 7413 5566
Amnesty International, 1 Easton St., London WC1X 0DW web : http://www.amnesty.org
We all have seen how good inteligence reports are in the mid-east at the iraq war.
So please don't shoot people because of inteligence reports but give them a fair trial in a non-military court.

Murder on both sides of this war is unacceptable

Klaus
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Old 10-10-2003, 11:42 AM   #37
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Thanks for the article Klaus. That just goes to show that human rights violations can happen anywhere. I remember people circulating leaflets about problems in Lebanon when I went to my first demonstration in 1982, right after the massacre (in which some of the victims were Jewish).
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Old 10-10-2003, 03:51 PM   #38
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Klaus,

"We all have seen how good inteligence reports are in the mid-east at the iraq war.
So please don't shoot people because of inteligence reports but give them a fair trial in a non-military court."

The Israely Defense Force knows far more about the danger to Israely Security than Amnesty International does. If Amnesty International can prove that elements of the Israely Defense Force actually targeted innocent civilians to be killed, then you have a war crime.

What would be ineffective for any government would be to allow terrorist the opportunity to hide among civilians and not allow anyone to pursue them because of the risk to innocent civilian life. Allow the terrorist this cover, then terrorism will only rise. Any military organization or police or law enforcement organization has the legitimate right to pursue terrorist when ever and where ever they hide and our found.

It is never unlawful to use force to defend oneself and that is what Israel has been doing.

It is sad to see an Organization like Amnesty International fail to recognize the fundamental difference between what Israel does and what Palestinian Terrorist do. Israel targets Palestinian Terrorist, Palestinian Terrorist Target Women and Childern.

Israel does not shoot terrorist that turn themselves in and has had many court proceedings that do. But if that terrorist is found and they turn and run, the Israely government has every right to use potentially deadly force to stop that individual. Otherwise, as a government official, you'll have to explain to the next Israely family why they didn't stop that individual that you did not shoot from committing their next terrorist act.

Israel targets terrorist, Palestinian Terrorist target women and childern.
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Old 10-11-2003, 12:46 PM   #39
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STING2:

You taked about the mid-east excelence of the Israeli secret service.
Did the US consult the Mossad before Iraq war? I guess so, there are intense connections between these 2 countries.
So.. either Mossad was wrong about Iraqs WMDs, Israel didn't tell the US all facts for political reasons or the US didn't listen to the mossad.
Or is there any other way you can explain that the US president ad such a bad information about the situation there?

Quote:
It is never unlawful to use force to defend oneself and that is what Israel has been doing.
That's what other countries claimed too in history - lots of them were proven as liars from history

Klaus


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Old 10-11-2003, 07:40 PM   #40
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Klaus,

"That's what other countries claimed too in history - lots of them were proven as liars from history"

Yep, but Israel is not one of those countries.

"So.. either Mossad was wrong about Iraqs WMDs, Israel didn't tell the US all facts for political reasons or the US didn't listen to the mossad.
Or is there any other way you can explain that the US president ad such a bad information about the situation there?"

#1 The reason for military action against Iraq was based on Iraq's failure to comply with 17 different UN resolutions passed under Chapter VII rules of the United Nations.

#2 Most the Presidents information came from UN inspectors who stated that Iraq had failed to account for 30,000 Bio/Chem shells, thousands of liters of Anthrax, hundreds of pounds of Mustard Gas. Until Saddam is verifiably disarmed, Saddam must be considered to be armed. It would be irrational to pretend otherwise. The 1991 UN Ceacefire agreement called for verifiable disarmament by Saddam. Saddam was required to prove he had fully disarmed. No member states of the UN, including the USA were ever required to prove anything.

#3 I do not know to what degree the USA communicated with Mossad before the war. Regardless of what information Mossad had or did not have, failure by Saddam to verifiably disarm remains the the #1 reason for the war to remove Saddam.

#4 President Bush did not have bad information, It was a solid fact that Saddam was in violation of 17 UN resolutions passed under Chapter VII rules and had failed to Verifiably disarm. The nit picking about various pieces of intelligence prior to the war that may or may not turn out to be true is irrelevant. Most intelligence initially gathered by intelligence organzations like the CIA and Mossad later turns out not to be true or entirely true. Again, this is irrelevant because the USA and other member states went to war against Saddam based the UN resolutions and Saddams failure to verifiably disarm, not on any of these odd reports about intelligence that later turned out not to be so or remain to be determined.
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Old 10-13-2003, 07:38 AM   #41
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#5 and almost all facts that were used and proven wrong later came from the Iraqi exile oposition who did lobying in Washington for years to get power in Iraq.

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