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Old 10-06-2003, 04:44 AM   #16
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Originally posted by STING2
"That's what the Serbs said too while they bombed the civillian population of Sarajevo for 3 years."

Yep, but it was obvious that targeting unarmed civilians had nothing to do with self defense.
So why is it then alright in this case? Israel also targetted unarmed civilians here.
At least, that's what Syria says, Israel asserts that it targeted a terrorist camp. Who's stating the truth here? I don't know. But I'm always sceptical when parties are attacking another party just based on their own judgement and not backed by evidence to the rest of the world.

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Old 10-06-2003, 08:59 AM   #17
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Seems like other countries copy the preemptive strike diplomacy now.

I'm sure Israel feels like they didn't violate international laws.
Since they are technically still in war with syria (also they didn't attack each other for 30 years)

the fact that they are the only nuclear superpower in the mid-east dosn't seem to help in the peace process there.

The loosers are the civilians on all sides. They have to pay the blood, no matter if they are israelis who are killed by suicide bombers or if they are palestinensians who are shot or bombed by the Israeli government

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Old 10-06-2003, 10:44 AM   #18
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And as in the past Israel dosn't proof that they hit terrorists - they say they hit terrorists - syria says they hit civilists.
Terrorists are usually not part of a regular army. So technically, terrorists are civilians.
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Old 10-06-2003, 01:32 PM   #19
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Popmartijn,

"So why is it then alright in this case? Israel also targetted unarmed civilians here.
At least, that's what Syria says, Israel asserts that it targeted a terrorist camp. Who's stating the truth here? I don't know. But I'm always sceptical when parties are attacking another party just based on their own judgement and not backed by evidence to the rest of the world."

Israel is NOT targeting Civilians. Targeting civilians in Syria would accomplish nothing. If it was Israel's goal to simply target civilians, Israel could kill half the population in Syria in 30 minutes with its Nuclear Weapons. It would only take Israel a matter of a few days or weeks to remove and slaughter every Palestinian on the West Bank. But that is not what Israel does. They respect innocent human life unlike the Terrorist and many Arabs.

At Jenin, the Arab press raged that Israel had murdered 7,000 people. It was later found that only 48 civilians had died and all were from accidents. This finding was done by United Nations forensic teams.

The targeting of innocent civilians is what Palestinian Terrorist, Humas, Hezbolah, and other terror organizations do. These organizations kill more innocent people on an anual basis than Al Quada. Syria supports them. Just as the USA had the right to strike the Taliban, Israel has the right to strike any government or terrorist organization in Syria that is attacking it.

Israel is a democracy and the people that live there know about Genocide and Gross human rights abuses. They were the victims of it when many of them or their parents lived in Europe back in the 1930s and 1940s.

The Syrian Government on the other hand is not a democracy. It has been engaged in warefare and terrorism against Israel since Israel was formed in 1948.'



Klaus,

How is the Israely strike any different than US Strikes on Al Quada or the Taliban in Afghanistan?
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Old 10-07-2003, 01:56 PM   #20
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if i remember it correctly Afghanistan got a ultimatum and Mr. Powell did a good job in forming a international aliance
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Old 10-07-2003, 03:41 PM   #21
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if i remember it correctly Afghanistan got a ultimatum and Mr. Powell did a good job in forming a international aliance
Yes. Everyone was in on the action in Afghanistan. Israel's attack on Syria is being blasted by the neighbors, including countries like Jordan and Turkey which both have diplomatic ties with Israel and a vested interest in peace and stability in the region. This is just de-stabilizing things and this scares the out of me.
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Old 10-07-2003, 04:08 PM   #22
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Klaus,

That true, but the USA would have gone into Afghanistan without a Coalition if it had too. Israel has presented Syria with tons of ultimatums over the past 30 years. They have tried negotiations and all kinds of things and Syria has done NOTHING!

Why does Syria allow Terrorist to operate from its territory!?

Why is it ok for Syria to allow terrorist that target and murder Israely childern to operate from its territory, but its not ok for Israel to target those terrorist operating from Syrian terrority.

It is insane.

Israel is a true democracy unlike its neighbors. Its people know what it is like to be ignored by most of the international community as it happened in the 1930s. They know what its like to fight four wars for their survival, and to be surounded by enemies. The people in Israel are smart, politically active, well educated, and are willing to do what is necessary to defend themselves.

Its frustrating to see nations that support terrorism and allow for the most disgusting human rights abuses to be plotted and planned and supported from their territory, escape with so little scurtiny on balance to their actions.

Instead of jumping all over the only true democratically elected government in the middle east, perhaps its time people looked at their side of the story for once and started to reserve some judgement on countries that harbor terrorist like Syria.

How does Syria support for terrorism help the peace process.? Hell how does Syria's support and harboring of terrorism help anyone?

Israel has the right to defend itself. The right of self-defense does not require one to have a coaltion. It does not require and ultimatum although Israel has given several of those over the past 30 years.
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Old 10-07-2003, 05:14 PM   #23
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Israel has the right to defend itself.
I will agree with this, but to a degree.

STING, since you are a big fan of UN Resolutions, I'm certain that you are likely aware of the number of them Israel is breaking by callously expanding settlements - the newest number being 600 new structures which are against international law, against UN Resolutions, against the roadmap and against what the current US administration has said over and over again about halting settlement expansion. So, is it not true that Israel, while an elected democracy, is also continuously disregarding legalities, and essentially provoking an already hostile population for absolutely no reason whatsoever except that it happens to be the biggest beast in the jungle, so that it can?

Surely, you will agree that UN Resolutions are sacred.
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Old 10-07-2003, 05:31 PM   #24
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I will agree with this, but to a degree.

STING, since you are a big fan of UN Resolutions, I'm certain that you are likely aware of the number of them Israel is breaking by callously expanding settlements - the newest number being 600 new structures which are against international law, against UN Resolutions, against the roadmap and against what the current US administration has said over and over again about halting settlement expansion. So, is it not true that Israel, while an elected democracy, is also continuously disregarding legalities, and essentially provoking an already hostile population for absolutely no reason whatsoever except that it happens to be the biggest beast in the jungle, so that it can?

Surely, you will agree that UN Resolutions are sacred.
I agree, stop the settlements. They are a provocation and are making a bad situation worse. The behavior of the Sharon government is an impediment for peace for Israel and its neighbors.
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Old 10-07-2003, 06:02 PM   #25
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anitram,

I'm against the settlement building being done by Israel on the West band but in any event it is still a tiny fraction of the West Bank and not an issue of life and death and security like the terrorism issue is. There would be no settlement building in the West Bank if the Palestinians had accepted the deal that gave them 95% of what they wanted 3 years ago.

The UN resolutions are very important. But one must realize that UN resolutions passed against Israel have all been passed under CHAPTER VI rules of the United Nations. Under Chapter VI rules of the United Nations, enforcement of the resolution can only be brought about through NEGOTIATION.

Israel has bent over backwards to Negotiate. It is the Palestinians that have refused every plan for peace from the UN Partition plan of 1948 to the most recent peace plan in 2000.

Israel has the right to defend itself with all means necessary, just like any person about to be the victim of rape or murder does as well. It has also according to UN resolutions tried to find a negotiated peace settlement and has accepted several plans and been ready to implement them. The Palestinians have rejected every peace plan that has come their way.

Israel does care about the UN resolutions and is trying to find a netotiated settlement according to UN resolutions. The Palestinians have shown no interest in a Negotiated settlement as evidence by their rejection of every peace plan from 1948 till now. Israel cares more about implementing the UN resolutions than the Palestinians.
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Old 10-08-2003, 03:28 AM   #26
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The UN resolutions are very important. But one must realize that UN resolutions passed against Israel have all been passed under CHAPTER VI rules of the United Nations. Under Chapter VI rules of the United Nations, enforcement of the resolution can only be brought about through NEGOTIATION.
And how come those resolutions have all been passed under Chapter VI rules and not under Chapter VII rules? Is the 2 word phrase 'US veto' enough?

C ya!

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Old 10-08-2003, 07:16 AM   #27
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Sting:

Both sides accept that they murder innocent people while they think they fight the "big evil" - that's why i can't support any of them.

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Old 10-08-2003, 08:20 PM   #28
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Popmartijn,

Please name one UN resolution passed against Israel that the US Vetoed from being passed under Chapter VII rules. In fact can you name any UN resolution passed against Israel where there was ever a majority in the Security Council that wanted to pass it under Chapter VII rules? Please name the resolution.

Klaus,

Israel goes after terrorist just like the police go after violent criminals. The IDF target terrorist. The Terrorist target Israely Teens in disco's perhaps listening to U2. Thats the difference, and its a huge one.
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Old 10-08-2003, 08:51 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
Israel has bent over backwards to Negotiate.
I would argue that its continued settlement building shows that they really aren't willing to negotiate.

Of course, part of the problem, indeed, is that the two major political parties in Israel--Labor and Likud--widely disagree on this issue. I would say that, yes, Rabin and Peres did bend over backwards to negotiate. But Netanyahu and Sharon? Not at all. It's about provocation.

But I am also not the biggest fan of the Islamic world anyway. They have an entire sphere of influence all their own and they bitch over a little sliver of land that "the Jews" have. I say that if they are willing to share Mecca, then perhaps Israel can share Jerusalem. But, no. As much as all these petty Islamic nations hate Israel and are rabidly anti-Semitic (i.e., our "ally," Saudi Arabia, banned Barbie dolls recently calling them "Jewish"), they hate each other--including the Palestinians. Maybe Israel can give all these people with a death wish what they really want and kill them so they can be in their misogynist paradise with their virgins that they can defile.

Or, better yet, they can rot in hell.

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Old 10-09-2003, 01:50 AM   #30
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Israel goes after terrorist just like the police go after violent criminals. The IDF target terrorist. The Terrorist target Israely Teens in disco's perhaps listening to U2. Thats the difference, and its a huge one.
Police dosn't kill without a proof. And in most cases i have seen Police dosn't accept colaterale damage or does bulldoze buildings of families of "evildoers"

To the comment to Popmartijn:
There would be far more resolutions against Israels action if the US wouldn't protect Israels behaviour with israels behaviour veto in the UN.

In the last peace-effort i can't remember that Israels government stopped their settlers, stoped building the wall in a terretory which was traditionally palestinensian or contributed anything other essential to the peace-process.

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