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Old 01-14-2003, 11:16 PM   #31
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I understand your point, thats good. I'm not an advocate at all of unilateralism, and if the USA does disarm Iraq, it will be with some type of a coalition. Nearly every war the USA has ever fought has always been in the context of some type of coalition.
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Old 01-15-2003, 01:55 AM   #32
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I agree with Melon and Deep that the overall socialistic tone of the article easily rubs one the wrong way

I don't get how one single paragraph (where three professions are named: "politicians, and generals, and corporate executives") can lead to a whole thread about how this guy perceives the US army
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Old 01-15-2003, 02:58 AM   #33
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"Generals" is not an independent profession from the US military.
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Old 01-15-2003, 04:02 AM   #34
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meeganie: am looking into what exactly the first speach was, don't know at the moment, will get back to you.
And Sting2 I also have close friends and family in the military. In fact my very dear uncle is quite high ranking (though not a general by any means.) And you know what? Every one of them I know is very opposed to our current stance on war, which is what I am getting at. I do not think that these statments are a blanket denunciation of the military. On the contrary, I think that they are denunciations of military actions, which are not concived by the average service man by any means.
This is a statement against the war that we are currently gearing up the fight in the name of nothing but oil. If we were truely concerned with weapons of mass destruction we would be going after North Korea as we know that they are indeed manufacturing weapons of mass destruction. This is simply a war to line our dear vice president's pockets.
I for one am sickened that our governement feels so little for the lives of our soldiers that they would use them so recklessly in the pursuite of wealth.

And yeah, i agree with it all, except for the staying part. Australia I'm coming, in two years. *sigh*
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Old 01-15-2003, 04:03 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
Popmartian,

Members of the US Armed Forces are not involved in "dirty business". Members of the US Armed Forces do not plan coups, start wars, or run sweatshops. Members of the US Armed Forces defend and protect the citizens United States and other countries. They prevent war from happening by detering those that would seek to unlawfully attack others for various reasons. They bring to justice those that commit evil crimes and threaten the peace and security of everyone. They risk their lives so that people can live in freedom and prosperity. They are the reason why Robert Jensen has the opportunity to express his offensive and uninformed view point.
Others have already pointed out some cases where the US Military was involved in some 'dirty business', Nicaragua, Panama, El Salvador and Vietnam, to name a few cases. I'm not implying that all the US Military does is dirty business (nor were I assuming Robert Jensen did), but when it does the public will find out about it and a backlash is coming from it.

BTW, this holds ground for every country, no exemption. The Dutch military (for so far we have one) has also been involved in some 'dirty cases' (Srebenica, Indonesia in the '50s, Suriname).

C ya!

Marty
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Old 01-15-2003, 04:28 AM   #36
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Notitie,

Well thats an interesting perspective from the people you know in the military. My friends who will be in Kuwait in two weeks support the objective of disarming Saddam and are ready to use military force to disarm him. I honestly do not know anyone in the military, active or retired who is opposed to the current policy, but thats just the view from where I am and who I know. Polls of the American people strongly support the Presidents policy and the United Nations already voted 15-0 to support George Bush's latest resolution on Iraq.

By the way, any military action against the Iraq will not line the pockets of those in Oil companies. Overthrowing the regime in Iraq will simply allow more Iraqi oil to come on to the market reducing the price of oil in the long term. That does not benefit anyone in the oil business or the VPs friends, it benefits you and me. When the amount of oil available on the world market increase, the price of oil drops. You and I pay less for all are energy needs. Consumers around the world benefit, not oil executives.

Popmartian,

I support the US military activities and operations in Nicaragua, Panama, El Salvador, and Vietnam, with the exception of a few errors and crimes commited by individuals in some of them. Our operations on the whole were clearly justified though. My father spent a full year in Vietnam in 1968 during the heaviest fighting.

What Jensen said was offensive and incorrect. He glosses over the facts and generalizes his way to his unobjective grand conclusions on US Foreign Policy and the US Military.
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Old 01-15-2003, 05:54 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
Members of the US Armed Forces do not plan coups
Chile. September 11th 1972. Salvador Allende is the democratically elected president.

Do you know where I'm going with this?
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Old 01-15-2003, 07:26 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
"Generals" is not an independent profession from the US military.
and that's why discussion in this thread about that entire article only focusses on the US army now?


I hope no one over here has an uncle who is a corporate executive
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Old 01-15-2003, 09:27 AM   #39
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"Scartletwine, if you have a charge to level against any high ranking military official, lets here it. Name and charge please. "

I would say Oliver North fits that catagory.

And I can't believe you support our military's actions in all the above mentioned places. That basically is against everything the band, that this board is based on, believes as shown in their music. I don't see your connection I guess.

One of my best friend's, in Jr High, father was a POW in vietnam and he was one messed up person when he returned. I do not degrade the service the enlisted men and women performed there. I do blame the US war machine for putting us there to start with. I believe if Kenedy had lived we wouldn't have been there.

I blame the US war machine for pushing us into Iraq to quickly.

I blame Ashcroft for trying to make it illegal to disagree with the government line. I'm going to a peace rally in DC Saturday and last night a friend worriedly said "You know you can be arrested for even attending on of those". I thought I like in the USA where freedom to express opposing views was held in esteem.
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Old 01-15-2003, 12:14 PM   #40
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STING2, being from another country, I wont critisize generals or armed services or soldiers from the U.S. But I cant understand your point of view.

My grandfather was missed in the second world war, and there will be no compensation my country can offer me for that. So I laugh cynically at patriotism, I hate it bitterly, and I hate anyone who defends patriotism in my very own country. Some, at least, have learnt a lesson from WWII.

I cant understand how members of any armed forces, including the U.S. now, can be proud of the job they are doing, when there are realtives and loved ones who die. For me, it is strange that the mothers and fathers of soldiers dont cry out and point their fingers on the people that are responsible: in most cases not the so - called enemy, but the politicians of their own country, who have sent their own fellow countrymen to "serve their country" - with their lives.
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Old 01-15-2003, 08:13 PM   #41
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Fizzing,

Yes, please continue. Please provide which of the 5 Branches of the Armed forces(Army, Navy, Marines, Air Force, Coast Guard) were involved and full name and rank of those involved.

Salome,

Yep.


Scarletwine,

Ok, anyone else?

I can't believe you have narrowly defined everything U2 does as being against US foreign Policy in Central America in the 1980s. Their opposition in that one area does not define their activism or thoughts in other different area's. I hate to tell you this but U2 are not pacifist and have supported US military action in Bosnia and Aghanistan. The band do have a couple of songs in which they express their strong disagreement and outrage against US foreign policy in Central America, but thats it.

I don't try to copy every single political position my favorite artist makes. I base my positions on my own research and experience. Some of my friends who are die hard U2 fans are members of the NRA. I'm actually opposed to the NRA and support domestic gun control like U2 does. I have never thought of questioning one of my friends or anyone because they have a different position from U2 on a specific controversial political issue.

I agree with U2 in several political area's such as Debt relief, economic aid to Africa and other poor countries, their concerns on enviromental issues, oh and yes, their support for military action in Bosnia and Afghanistan.

I've met the entire band, but I have never presumed to really know for sure how the band feels on everything or a lot of different complex political issues. I think its naive for anyone to presume to know that or to automatically put U2 in their camp on everything politically. I'm sure the band members sometimes disagree with each other on certain political issues. I only have the quotes from magazines and books. One of my good friends who is a Captain in the US Marine Corp and is a Cobra Attack Helicopter pilot and will be in Kuwait in two weeks is a huge fan like myself and has also met the band like me. There are people all across the USA and the planet who do various jobs, belong to various political parties and have many different view points on a wide variety of political situations.

As far as the "message board" since when are the "beliefs" of this message board for or against any political view point? Since when did Interference.com become a liberal left website totally opposed to other political view points? Do you understand what the meaning of "Free Your Mind" is. I don't think it means political indoctrination by the left.

You say you do not degrade the enlisted men and women who served in Vietnam. Does that mean you degrade the officers who served in Vietnam? My Father was an Officer, A Captain when he first went into Vietnam and then promoted to Major while he was there.

Nope, the US Armed Forces or "War Machine"(another offensive term) did not put the USA in Vietnam. Rather Ironic that you say that if Kennedy had lived we wouldn't have been there. First the USA was already there! In fact President Kennedy increased the number of US military personal in Vietnam from 500 when he first took office in 1961 to over 16,000 when he was murdered in 1963.

How exactly is the US armed forces pushing us into Iraq or anywhere to quickly?

As for Bush's moves to enforce United Nations resolutions passed under Chapter VII rules that obligate the use of force to make sure they are complied with, the USA and other countries are late in making sure such resolutions are complied with. Saddam has had plenty of chances to comply over the past 12 years but instead has obstructed and lied and then openly defied the conditions of UN resolutions and the 1991 ceacefire agreement. Saddam has the choice to disarm himself now or he will be disarmed with military force if necessary.
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Old 01-15-2003, 08:25 PM   #42
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Hiphop,

I'm not sure If I understand what you say you don't understand about my point of view. I don't fully understand your 2nd paragraph about your Grandfather and patriotism. My main beef with Jensen's article was not about his belief of what patriotism is or is not, but offensive and incorrect things he said about the US military.

The US military is proud of the work and sacrifices, because they defend the freedom and security that we enjoy today. They help to prevent wars and destruction and if necessary will conduct military operations against a particular threat to prevent it from causing greater loss of life and terror. Most friends and families support their soldiers because they understand and realize the sacrifices they make to keep them and others around the world, safe and free.
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Old 01-15-2003, 09:18 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
Fizzing,


Nope, the US Armed Forces or "War Machine"(another offensive term) did not put the USA in Vietnam. Rather Ironic that you say that if Kennedy had lived we wouldn't have been there. First the USA was already there! In fact President Kennedy increased the number of US military personal in Vietnam from 500 when he first took office in 1961 to over 16,000 when he was murdered in 1963.

I bit my tongue on that one!

It is historically unfair to say one way or another what Kennedy would have done had he survived. It is questionable that he even would have been re-elected. My senior year in college I lived at the Kennedy Library doing research. Many of his people, who are protectors of the Kennedy legacy, have said he would have gotten us out of Vietnam.

The fact is, he started the escalation.
The theory is he wanted to get us out in his second term.

Peace
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Old 01-15-2003, 09:54 PM   #44
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STING2,

its very simple.

In war people die, sometimes loved ones die or get hurt. Armed forces, if not U.N., are basically existing to fight wars, not to secure peace. But I neither want to argue about that.

Soldiers die.

Do you disagree?

Soldiers die.

Do you want to give me statistics about who many died?

Soldiers die. Soldiers die. Soldiers die. If you can be proud of that, fine. Me not.

Can you follow this very logical thought, also if you are another opinion?
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Old 01-15-2003, 11:35 PM   #45
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Hiphop,

The United States military exist to defend the security and freedom of its citizens and the citizens of other countries around the world. Without them democracy would not exist as we know from the history of the 20th century. Policeman in your local community perform exactly the same function on a domestic local level. The US military trains and deters wars from happening and when needed goes into to destroy threats and violations of international law (under chapter VII rules of the UN) or reverse and stop an aggression in the process.

Soldiers are prepared to make the ultimate sacrifice to protect the freedom, security, and prosperity we often take for granted. Policeman and Fireman sometimes make the same sacrifice as well. They deserve are utmost respect and admiration for what they provide us through their courage and sacrifices.
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