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Old 01-14-2003, 03:28 PM   #16
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Popmartian,

Members of the US Armed Forces are not involved in "dirty business". Members of the US Armed Forces do not plan coups, start wars, or run sweatshops. Members of the US Armed Forces defend and protect the citizens United States and other countries. They prevent war from happening by detering those that would seek to unlawfully attack others for various reasons. They bring to justice those that commit evil crimes and threaten the peace and security of everyone. They risk their lives so that people can live in freedom and prosperity. They are the reason why Robert Jensen has the opportunity to express his offensive and uninformed view point.
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Old 01-14-2003, 03:49 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
They (US Armed Forces ) are the reason why Robert Jensen has the opportunity to express his offensive and uninformed view point.
I see statements like this all the time.

I believe it is the Constitution and The Bill of Rights that allow peolpe to express all points of view.
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Old 01-14-2003, 04:40 PM   #18
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Re: Good bye to Patriotism?

Quote:
Originally posted by notiti
This is the second and final part of a two part series. The first part appeared on Tuesday, January 7, 2003

Where did this appear? Does anyone know where I can find the first part? My friend wants to use this in teaching her class. Thanks!
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Old 01-14-2003, 05:04 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
Popmartian,

Members of the US Armed Forces are not involved in "dirty business". Members of the US Armed Forces do not plan coups, start wars, or run sweatshops. Members of the US Armed Forces defend and protect the citizens United States and other countries. They prevent war from happening by detering those that would seek to unlawfully attack others for various reasons. They bring to justice those that commit evil crimes and threaten the peace and security of everyone. They risk their lives so that people can live in freedom and prosperity. They are the reason why Robert Jensen has the opportunity to express his offensive and uninformed view point.
My father is retired Air Force, my step father is a retired Marine, and my Uncle a retired "bird" from the Pentagon and I took no offense to the "dirty business" After my stepdad retired he went on to become the highest ranking civilian at Langley AFB and Tac Headquarters. I grew up next to Langley, Norfolk, and Ft. Monroe, 3 branches of the military and am very familiar how they operate. The job the enlisted men and women of the military do are mostly faultless (there are exceptions), but the hierarchy of the military and the white house often are at fault for their actions. Think Reagan and South America.

I do most definitely agree that most US citizens are either in the dark or have their heads purposely buried in the sand concerning our governments actions.
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Old 01-14-2003, 05:11 PM   #20
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Originally posted by Cow of the Seas


i dont give TWO SHITS if this article or my views are offensive to the american armed forces. theyre brainwashed robots on the leash of messed up politicians.




That is so true. I remember in Boot Camp, there was this class where the Drill Sgt. Took out a gold watch on a chain and waved it back and forth for a few minutes. I remember nothing at all after that. It was so weird. And then he counted to three and I was awake.

All I could think of after was every time he said the "salt peter" I would suddenly lock and load a magazine and beg to be sent to the nearest third world country to overthrow their governement so that we could make sweat shops for Corporate America.


Ahhhhhh those were the days!

Seriously now.

America is not as good many "Patriots" like to believe it is........
Nor is America as bad as many people would like to paint it as.....

OUR past is full of goodness, hope, and opportunity........
OUR past is also full of greed, abuses and horror.......

Are there bad politicians? Are there bad soldiers? YES. Human beings are flawed and many times their flaws lead them and unfortunately others down the wrong path.

Are there good politicians? Are there good soldiers? YES. Patriotism lives in many peoples hearts. Many people do serve their country and look upon it as a noble thing to do.

There is a tone in that article, that is offensive to members of the service. The article is not representative of the reasons I joined the military. It is not representative of my relatives service to their country.

We ARE lucky to live here. We are blessed with many freedoms that others do not have. This still is a place that offers opportunities that others would die for. Are we perfect???? No but do we have the means....to change peacefully?

MLK day is coming up. We are a country that changes so slowly it almost reminds me of the vatican. We do CHANGE. The scars of slavery are still there, yet we have and still are working through these issues. That ability to change, to make things better for the future generations, is what makes this country special. Will I see it in my lifetime....probably not. Do I believe that we have the ability as a country to move towards a better society? Aboslutely. Did I sign my name on the line and take an oath to protect it because I believe it is important to protect? YES.

Those brainwashed ROBOTS COW are some of the most dedicated people I have ever met and had the honor of calling my friends.

Peace
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Old 01-14-2003, 05:54 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by Scarletwine
The job the enlisted men and women of the military do are mostly faultless (there are exceptions), but the hierarchy of the military and the white house often are at fault for their actions. Think Reagan and South America.

I do most definitely agree that most US citizens are either in the dark or have their heads purposely buried in the sand concerning our governments actions.
i agree completely. i have nothing but respect for our military. my father is a vet and i respect him more than just about anyone on the planet. i'm very aware of how lucky and blessed i am to live in my country, and i realize who is out there fighting so i can enjoy the freedoms that i do. however, this does not mean that i will turn a blind eye when my government/military partakes in action that i find immoral or imperialistic.
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Old 01-14-2003, 06:50 PM   #22
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Reading this article i just knew Sting was going to have a fit. I was expecting his name to be the first to respond.

I enjoyed this point of view and as a i read it i really agreed with him but as i think more about it there is a tone in this article that is sort of demeaning. He kind of talks like he is the only one doing anything about patritism.

The military thing. Well maybe he should have been a little more sensitve to ppl of the military. They are a vitle part of America and are very respected and it seems to me like he, either knowingly or blindly, dis-respecting him. I actually do kind of agree with you sting, not to the degree of your outrage but i see where you are coming from.

However it is well written and i enjoyed the read. I dont think you can shoot down his whole theory just for inserting the word generals. Also i dont think he was attacking the entire military more like the people who are head of dep. These are the people who make the military decsions. These men are politcians, and as much as you might not agree with that i think anyone that is at the head of alot of people become polictions.

On a side note what GB SR said!!! I cant believ someone would say that. How can you be so blindly stubborn.
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Old 01-14-2003, 06:58 PM   #23
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Scartletwine,

My father was apart of that "Military heirarchy" so naturaly your implicating him in your unfounded criticism of the military. I was offended and most people I know would be as well, and if your not than that is your point of view.

I support the Reagan administration efforts to combat Communism in central America.

Most people in the US population don't realize what the military does for them on a daily basis.

Scartletwine, if you have a charge to level against any high ranking military official, lets here it. Name and charge please.

What the writer said basically implicated the entire US military in performing "dirty business" and "starting wars". The US military does neither!

I've never said I turn a blind eye to anything. I try to be objective and respectful unlike the writer of that article.
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Old 01-14-2003, 07:04 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
Popmartian,

Members of the US Armed Forces are not involved in "dirty business". Members of the US Armed Forces do not plan coups, start wars, or run sweatshops. Members of the US Armed Forces defend and protect the citizens United States and other countries. They prevent war from happening by detering those that would seek to unlawfully attack others for various reasons...
I'm not disputing that. But Jensen didn't indict ordinary soldiers. He specifically named generals, politicans, and businesspersons who *do* have a great amount of control and influence over military actions that most servicepersons do not have. Thus I think your statement that he was calling down all members of the military is misleading, because he targeted a very few members of the military who would have the influence and power to plan and order actions that we might consider unjust.

And about his statements that you pointed out: even if they're socialistic (and they might be, somewhat), that doesn't make them untrue. We know that our government has been involved in the kinds of actions Jensen mentions. While you might not like the way he worded it, you know he has a point.

I still think it's an inspiring article that has a lot to say about how one can be a *good* American without buying into the government/military/Big Business propaganda that the Bush administration would have us believe.
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Old 01-14-2003, 07:06 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
What the writer said basically implicated the entire US military in performing "dirty business" and "starting wars".
How are you getting that?
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Old 01-14-2003, 07:06 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
What the writer said basically implicated the entire US military in performing "dirty business" and "starting wars". The US military does neither!
I took the "dirty business" as a comment about the American corporate policy (eg - sweatshops, profits at all costs, underpaying and taking advantage of foreign workers in the name of the mighty buck) more than a comment about the military personnel.
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Old 01-14-2003, 07:18 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by paxetaurora


I'm not disputing that. But Jensen didn't indict ordinary soldiers. He specifically named generals, politicans, and businesspersons who *do* have a great amount of control and influence over military actions that most servicepersons do not have.
Though i dont agree with Sting fully i will defend this point.

He is puting alot of people in the same catagory.

Generals- I would think there are a good few of them around, and i wouldnt think they are ALL bad ppl. Also these people are giving orders to the ppl below them, and with saying this it makes me think that he expects that the servicemen should rebels againist them.

Politicans- Well again there are alot of them, too many if you ask me. But to loop them all in the same pile is kind of misleading. There are alot of politcans who do great things.

And lastly:

Businesspeople- Well any person that deals with international bus. could be put into this group. I do think it is kind of harsh to put them all down. There are maybe 10 big bus. that use SS. Maybe more maybe less. They can cover it up so well its hard to dicifer.

But really without any specifc examples of their misdoings i do think he is being very harsh on these people.
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Old 01-14-2003, 07:37 PM   #28
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Paxetaurora,

"Ordinary soldiers" have powerful control themselves over many actions that take place inside and outside combat. I find it a huge distortion to equate Generals with Politicians or Business "elite". The military is not like that and the Generals are not there making some enormous profit like someone in business or politics. They are soldiers just like the "private" and have long histories of distinguished service to this country. Many of them have served in combat. Some have been wounded. These Generals have spent most of their lives in service to their country sometimes risking their lives to keep our country safe. Their only ambition is the safety and security of our citizens and the citizens of world community. Generals only a recieve a tiny fraction of what they would if they were in a similar position in business or the private sector. They do not have the power to take the nation to war like the President and Congress does. They simply recommend and execute the orders of the Commander and Chief who is a civilian and a politician. The Generals of our country deserve are utmost respect for their decades of service to our country. They do not deserve comments like Jensens which are uninformed, unobjective, baseless generalizations.

Generals were once privates or 2nd LT platoon commanders themselves. The military is always changing with people towards the top retiring and new people coming in. This idea that their somehow seperate from the rest of the military is a false one. What ever part of the military you decide to implicate whether its a Captains, Majors, Privates or Generals, you implicate the organization as a whole. Its absurd, one day my friends become Generals and all of a sudden their accused of these unfounded crimes. I'm sorry but thats just absurd and makes no sense.

Jensen has a point on somethings, but certainly not on his politically motivated assumptions about US foreign Policy and the military.

If anyone is spewing propaganda its Jensen. By the way the military is not apart of a propaganda machine!
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Old 01-14-2003, 09:47 PM   #29
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im sure by now, most of you realize my posting is rediculously extreme. there is a reason for it.

the way media portrays everything, its so grey that everyone just assumes this or assumes that. if you have someone come in and say something a bit more harshly than the next youll take notice.

i dont understand why armed forces are to be considered so "holy." i doubt i ever will.

perhaps if i lived somewhere else, i would. but as a pacifist, i think the whole notion is rediculous.

whatever though, i liked the article, and though ofcourse it has propaganda value, i like to hear and read against the grain propaganda now and then.
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Old 01-14-2003, 10:06 PM   #30
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Sting, even if all that is accurate (and I'm not saying that it's not), *certain* generals still have influence over decisions that are made within the military. You've won me at least to the point where I'll say that Jensen should either have been more specific or excluded mention of the armed forces. Still, those military personnel (thought they might be few) who have been responsible for what we know to be poor or harmful decisions are culpable.

But I still agree with his basic points. He's right that we can't afford unilateralism, and that it is a quirky feature of American arrogance that we think that we can. We can love our country without the "my country right or wrong" flavor of patriotism that seems to have been added fairly recently in American history. I find it suspicious to say the least that at a time when the government is (or at least seems to be) planning a number of unpopular actions, we are getting messages of swollen "patriotism" as well.

Even though I am as anti-war as you can get without actually being pacifist, I still have respect for persons in the Armed Forces. I don't want you to get the impression that I don't. I am the granddaughter of veterans (WWII and Korea), and I realize that there are people willing to defend this country to the death if necessary. I respect that--so much that I want our country to develop policies that protect the lives of health of our men and women in uniform to the fullest extent possible. The best way to do that, natch, is to not to go war unless absolutely necessary.
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