good article about african aid by bill o reilly

[80sU2isBest]

No.

I don't believe they've found any evidence to implicate Kofi although yes his son was involved. The US also stymied any investigation into the scandal. It was convenience to help keep Sadaam contained and docile.

I'd say Vice President DICK Cheney is a gov't official as he was head of one of the US countries involved.

scarlet, Kofi tried to stymie the investigation but the US did not. The US was the main supporter of the investigation. By the time any news at all leaked out about the food for oil scandal, Saddam had long been out of power, so how can you say that the US stymied the investigation to help keep Saddam contained?

Dick Cheney was a top dog in Haliburton a long time ago. He is no longer employed by them.

 

[NYRangers78]

Yes sorry ,thanks
US corps - gov't same thing anymore

why because bush is president?

 

[nickypiemcg]

im not sure..maybe in africa it should go to it because of the seriousness of the situation over there...

as for america? people who dont want to catch sexually transmitted diseases or unwanted pregnancy should practice abstinence. i dont see why in new york, my tax dollars should go to paying for condoms for people. if your grown up enough to wanna have sex so bad than you should be able to pay for condoms. money could be used on cops and firemen and teachers and other stuff, but isntead condoms are given out for free all over the place.

yeah right mate abstinence works! human nature is human nature! we could take that a step further! why use tax dollars to pay for healthcare for people who have heart disease as a result of being obese?

 

[NYRangers78]

yeah right mate abstinence works! human nature is human nature! we could take that a step further! why use tax dollars to pay for healthcare for people who have heart disease as a result of being obese?

if u werent being sarcastic, i might almost agree with you. but it depends on how they became obese. did they become obese by lying around all day and eating 20 big macs a day?

 

[Sherry Darling]

im a 26 year old registered republican but i consider myself more independent than anything. the source im using is the article were discussing, the o reilly article.

ive watched the o reilly interview with bono and ive read the transcript...the impression i got was that bono was dissapointed with it and if o reilly is using facts about stuff that went wrong with live aid and the lack of organization than im assuming that what bono was mad about was that...im sure bono and all the others meant well, but it just didnt pan out help who it should have. and o reilly is not only giving his opinions, hes giving facts given to him by the charity watchdog group. charity navigator.

like i said before, people hates america, and hate bush, blah blah blah...but when they need money to fix problems or political pressure to be used upon some other country, its call that evil america to do all the dirty work and give all its money no strings attached.

26--okay. Thanks.

I think your view is terribly one-sided---which is to be expected from O'Reily. He's not serving you well. I asked about your sources because I thought you might have read books or taken a class or something on the issue. It's helpful to really understand global development, which is an impossibly complex thing.

Since you didn't answer my question about why Bono was disappointed in live aid (you seem to be using his disappointment as a way to write off an entire continent, which is why I'm concerned), I'll go for it. He was pissed, and rightly so, because all of the $$ they raised ended up back at the World Bank and IMF in the form of debt payments. That 's when he discovered that the global financial structure was the real cause of African poverty. (Does anyone have the link to that interview? I can't find it.... )

Never forget that corruption, whether at teh UN, the Pentagon or in Kinchasa, is a relationship. It's never one-sided.

Peace,
Cheryl

 

[NYRangers78]

26--okay. Thanks.

I think your view is terribly one-sided---which is to be expected from O'Reily. He's not serving you well. I asked about your sources because I thought you might have read books or taken a class or something on the issue. It's helpful to really understand global development, which is an impossibly complex thing.

Since you didn't answer my question about why Bono was disappointed in live aid (you seem to be using his disappointment as a way to write off an entire continent, which is why I'm concerned), I'll go for it. He was pissed, and rightly so, because all of the $$ they raised ended up back at the World Bank and IMF in the form of debt payments. That 's when he discovered that the global financial structure was the real cause of African poverty. (Does anyone have the link to that interview? I can't find it.... )

Never forget that corruption, whether at teh UN, the Pentagon or in Kinchasa, is a relationship. It's never one-sided.

Peace,
Cheryl

i thought i answered it by saying that bono was dissapointed that the money never got to where it needed to go because of lack of organization as far as african warlords gettting hold of the aid and using it for ransom and trades....i ahd forgotten about the debt part in the beginning but then i read the o reilly transcript and saw it..i havent written off an entire continent if anything i posted this article just to keep dialogue going and people talking...and i dont think the pentagon is corrupt while i think the UN is...thanks for the info though..

 

[nickypiemcg]

if u werent being sarcastic, i might almost agree with you. but it depends on how they became obese. did they become obese by lying around all day and eating 20 big macs a day?

not exclusive to big macs, i hear the cheeseburgers are quite fattening too.

 

[NYRangers78]

not exclusive to big macs, i hear the cheeseburgers are quite fattening too.

lol...

 

[NYRangers78]

not exclusive to big macs, i hear the cheeseburgers are quite fattening too.

glasgow right..... you follow celtic or rangers ??

 

[cardosino]

glasgow right..... you follow celtic or rangers ??

Partick Thistle ? Queens Park ?

 

[nickypiemcg]

Partick Thistle ? Queens Park ?

I'm actually originally from Edinburgh so neither. I used to support Hearts (a team from Edinburgh) when I was young but now I just follow Scotland (though if you have seen them play recently you'll know they're not much of a team!) I can't be bothered with all the sectarianism in Glasgow (though if I had to choose I'd choose Rangers!)

 

[NYRangers78]

cool...im a big celtic supporter.....sucks o neill had to retire....i root for scotland when they arent playing america or ireland...

 

[Sherry Darling]

i thought i answered it by saying that bono was dissapointed that the money never got to where it needed to go because of lack of organization as far as african warlords gettting hold of the aid and using it for ransom and trades....i ahd forgotten about the debt part in the beginning but then i read the o reilly transcript and saw it..i havent written off an entire continent if anything i posted this article just to keep dialogue going and people talking...and i dont think the pentagon is corrupt while i think the UN is...thanks for the info though..

Morning NY!

I wish I could find some links for ya, but my day is very tight. Check out O'Reily's website, actually, he might have the interview up. I'm sure some folks here have links to Bono's interviews on this topic--he's always very careful to incorporate both debt and trade issues, as well as *Western creditor* corruption. That's the thrust of his arguement, not a side point, so I was distress to see it, in my mind, misrepresented. It did indeed sound like you were arguing that because of corruption, we should do nothing. I'm glad to hear that I apparently misunderstood.

As for the article, I had planned to go thru it step by step to show where he's got his facts wrong, and still might later this evening. For now, let's just deal with the main point he ignored. He argues that the debt cancellatino $ has been wasted; the evidence suggests otherwise. For example, we know that schools and clinics have been built in Uganda, Ghana, Tanzania, etc. We also know that a Bank report that came out last year verified that 100% (100%!!!!) of debt cancallation money has been used for development, and (this is important to me) none for military purposes. If Billy boy had done his research, he'd know that too.

 

[NYRangers78]

hey good morning.... thanks for the info...no way would i just say dont help africa or anything....i know people who say they love u2 but they cant stand bonos political activism and i reply by saying would they rather he be doing drugs or having sex with 50 hookers a night? ive actually even thought about sponsoring a child in africa through one of those programs...my sister used to do it. i forget which one she used..do u know of any reputable ones??

 

[cardosino]

hey good morning.... thanks for the info...no way would i just say dont help africa or anything....i know people who say they love u2 but they cant stand bonos political activism and i reply by saying would they rather he be doing drugs or having sex with 50 hookers a night? ive actually even thought about sponsoring a child in africa through one of those programs...my sister used to do it. i forget which one she used..do u know of any reputable ones??

better yet, buy 'em a cow

http://catalog.heifer.org/

 

[starsforu2]

I wanted to clarify people's perception of the Abstinence Programs that are endorsed by George Bush. It isn't an only Abstinence program. It's known as the ABC program. Abstinence, Be Faithful, Use Condoms. I don't know why people jump all over this. It's seems extremely sensible. You push for an ideal, you encourage good behavior and you provide protection if both of those fail. Perhaps it's just another stick to beat Bush with.

In Uganda (an oft studied success story in the reduction of Aids in a population), they used a combined effort to encourage kids to wait longer, to warn people to not have so many partners and provided condom education to stem the rise of Aids infections. Apparently, in places like Taiwan where the biggest problem with infections was in the sex trade, obviously Abstinence just isn't going to go over well, and they didn't push for it.

And the argument that it's going against people's nature to practice abstinence is a poor one. It's against our nature to teach us not to settle our quarrels with our fists, but we're taught that it isn't right and most of stop punching the kid that disagrees with us in 3rd grade. Just because people tend toward bad or self-destructive behavior doesn't mean you should endorse it and call it normal. Don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying that Abstinence is going to reach every kid, but if it makes a few more wary about having sex until later, it's a good thing.

Here's an interesting article on the ABC program. I just googled it, I think it's an official document from the US gov.

http://www.usaid.gov/our_work/global_health/aids/News/abcfactsheet.html

 

[NYRangers78]

i agree with bushs abstinence programs..and isnt it horrible of people to think that the africans arent capable of abstinence like theyre some wild animals?

 

[starsforu2]

i agree with bushs abstinence programs..and isnt it horrible of people to think that the africans arent capable of abstinence like theyre some wild animals?

I think it's called the Soft Bigotry of Low Expectations, although I might be mangling the quotation.

 

[80sU2isBest]

I think it's called the Soft Bigotry of Low Expectations, although I might be mangling the quotation.

I think that is what it is called.

And I'd say it's a pretty accurate description.

 

[Irvine511]

i agree with bushs abstinence programs..and isnt it horrible of people to think that the africans arent capable of abstinence like theyre some wild animals?

i'd say that's a drastic simplification of a very complex problem.

it's the same line of logic that brought us the idea that Iraqis would great American troops with flowers as if it were the Netherlands and it was 1945.

fewer areas of human behavior are more complex and culturally influence than sexuality, and simply telling people to abstain isn't going to do much good.

 

[nickypiemcg]

cool...im a big celtic supporter.....sucks o neill had to retire....i root for scotland when they arent playing america or ireland...

Lean times for celtic and rangers at the moment. 10 years ago rangers had a team that could challenge the best in europe but not any more. Half the population of glasgow seem to support Ireland over scotland, this really annoys me because they call themselves scottish but then support another team over their own nation (just because their grandparents are from Ireland or something). Alot of people seem to support any team against england too! My gran is english so i follow them after scotland but one of my mate's mum's is english and he hates england and supports any team against them (he doesn't think this sounds silly)

 

[bonoman]

Half the population of glasgow seem to support Ireland over scotland, this really annoys me because they call themselves scottish but then support another team over their own nation (just because their grandparents are from Ireland or something).

Geez, its no wonder, they do lke to see their team win a bit.

 

[echo0001]

And the argument that it's going against people's nature to practice abstinence is a poor one. It's against our nature to teach us not to settle our quarrels with our fists, but we're taught that it isn't right and most of stop punching the kid that disagrees with us in 3rd grade. Just because people tend toward bad or self-destructive behavior doesn't mean you should endorse it and call it normal. Don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying that Abstinence is going to reach every kid, but if it makes a few more wary about having sex until later, it's a good thing.

You argument is flawed.

Since you want to get into behaviors that are linked to instinct, consider this; there isn't a mature animal (not discussing human society here, but individual animals, including individual people) in the world that will fight if there's any way it can avoid violence. How many time have you seen two rowdy dogs back down from fighting, or two angry men, for that matter? In the great, grand, vast majority of individual confrontations, and even in many group confrontations (small groups, NOT armies directed by governments, not talking about human society, remember), the parties will attempt to find a way to avoid physical violence. Self-preservation trumps violence in the instinct department.

However, every animal in the world will fuck anything it can fuck, as many times as they can. Preservation of The Species is probably the strongest physical instinct that exists.

It takes a lot of education to teach abstinence--and people will still come up with excuses; "He doesn't look sick.", "I'm healthy, I won't catch anything if I indulge just this once," etc. The instinct that drives us into one-another's beds is strong and persistent. Mother Nature says "Fuck", and she says it in a very loud voice.

 

[U2DMfan]

maybe he never said it was a disaster but he basically gave the impression that it was. bono basically admitted that the money never got to where it went to.....and if u dont think the UN is corrupt, then i have a bridge in brooklyn to sell you. years ago it wasnt. but now? i wouldnt believe the U.N. for anything as long as annan is in charge.

I don't see it

O'REILLY: OK. I like that. Because that, at least, gives you a chance. You know, your friend, Bob Geldof, you know.

BONO: Yes.

O'REILLY: Remember, he raised all that money with the Live Aid he did. Very little of it got to anybody.

BONO: Well, look, I've seen what it did. I've been to Africa, I've seen -- it did a lot. But the reason I got involved in this whole business that I'm in now is largely to do with Live Aid, and it engaged me and engaged my generation to realize that we actually -- we can't escape what's going on in Africa, and that we have to look at sometimes the structural problems of the poverty of Africa.

And it's true, Live Aide, we made -- I think $200 million on the English side. And we thought, wow, we've cracked it. What an amazing thing. And then we realize that Africa pays $200 million every week on old debts that it was lent by -- you know, for Cold War reasons, you know, during the Cold War to dodgy dictators, and we were still collecting those debts, even though it was two generations later.

O'REILLY: Yes. And all the money in Switzerland with Mobutu and all these guys. Now, let's talk a little AIDS.

BONO: But there was corruption there on our part. You don't understand that.

O'REILLY: I don't know if it was corruption.

BONO: Not just on their part.

O'REILLY: I don't think you guys understood what you were getting into in the Live Aid situation. Oh, you mean there was corruption on the USA's part?

BONO: No, it wasn't just the U.S., but Europe, all the rich countries lending this money willy-nilly and then demanding it back a generation later. It was just a mistake.

that was the only Live AID portion, here is the link
http://www.atu2.com/news/article.src?ID=3490&Key=&Year=

 

[Saracene]

Bono is sure skilled at ducking sticky questions.

 

[Sherry Darling]

What precisely was he doging? I think Bill was the one ducking--esp. if you saw the interview. It doesn't quite come off just reading the transcript, but that "and all the $ in Switzerland with Motutu" thing he said very fast and cut Bono off when he (Bono) was going to elaborate. Bono made two critical points there.

1. Poverty is structural.
2. Corruption is a *realationship*--the old Cold War loans Bono refers to are a perfect example.

To give credit where credit is due, though, at the end of the interview, O'Reilly said he agreed with debt relief and thought Bono was doing "God's work".

 

[financeguy]

To give credit where credit is due, though, at the end of the interview, O'Reilly said he agreed with debt relief and thought Bono was doing "God's work".

Nice of him. I love the way these conservatives bring God into everything.

 

[verte76]

Some African countries are democracies, like Uganda. Some, like Zimbabwe, are stuck with odious dictators. Debt relief in Uganda helped that country greatly. They have clean water in many areas, they have more kids in school, they're doing better in general. And even O'Reilly supports debt relief in principle. The G8 has just agreed to drop a whole slew of debt, and my hat's off to them.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Nice of him. I love the way these conservatives bring God into everything.

God forbid anyone should ever talk about the creator of the universe...

 

[Saracene]

Point taken, I haven't actually seen the interview. But I got the impression of Bono of ducking the point that a lot of Live Aid money went into the wrong hands, such as the Ethiopian dictator mentioned at the start of the thread. Instead he just says vaguely, "I've seen what it did, it did a lot".