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Old 01-09-2005, 09:08 AM   #1
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Normal Gone too far

I know we aren't allowed spinoff threads but I'm going to try to tack this on like a part of a pork barrel bill. Since the other thread was closed before I could say this, I do want to publically state that the comment I made about 'prison' concerning the abortion dr. and patient was only aimed at the last part of my post, the late term partial birth abortion topic, not just any situation. Partial birth and late term abortions, especially after the fetus is viable at 22 weeks or so IS brutal murder. But I do want to apologize if anyone thought I meant anything but that. Re read my post in the closed thread if you want, that was the last think I listed before I said that and that is what I meant.

Now, the reason for this thread. There are so many abortion fights, so this is very topical here. I was talking to my insurance salesman, a guy about 45 who worked in a family business with his parents. He told me that he and his mother were at an insurance conference of some kind with agents from all over the area there, and his mother got into a very loud and heated argument with another agent. Then, she collapsed to the floor. He knew CPR and tried to help her but she was gone already, her mouth still open from yelling. She had no pulse and was pronounced dead by the paramedics when they arrived.

The reason I'm posting this is to give an extreme example of the intense and deep feelings this issue brings on both sides. It's not just us. Which side was she on? I don't know. I didn't even ask him. It doesn't matter. It's very sad no matter what that someone felt so passionate about their issue that they literally died trying to voice their opinion. And I think it is an example of how things we can't control can go so far that tragedy results. The last thing I want is for this to become another abortion thread so let's not get into that.
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Old 01-09-2005, 10:42 AM   #2
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Thanks for posting this U2Kitten. This just goes to show how destructive it can be when we don't accept each other's differences. This sort of thing does no one any good.
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Old 01-09-2005, 12:33 PM   #3
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I try to avoid the issue of abortion. It's virtually impossible to change people's minds on the issue, and it ends up being just a fight going around in circles with no productivity. I have my opinion, and you have yours. That's that.
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Old 01-09-2005, 02:02 PM   #4
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I do not discuss my views on abortion in public. Period. I have my opinion, others have theirs, and I'm not going to change anyone's mind. I act on my beliefs, and that's that.
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Old 01-09-2005, 05:32 PM   #5
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The only problem with not speaking your mind is that some day you'll find that the issue has alread been decided by those who are willing to voice their opinion. The squeaky wheel gets the grease.

And although I realize that stress can exacerbate existing problems, the woman who died in the middle of an argument most likely already had severe health issues (whether or not they were diagnosed), and the argument was the trigger, but not the cause. Doesn't take away from the grief of the family, however.
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Old 01-09-2005, 08:56 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by indra
The only problem with not speaking your mind is that some day you'll find that the issue has alread been decided by those who are willing to voice their opinion. The squeaky wheel gets the grease.

If ever there was a time to begin speaking ones mind it is now.
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Old 01-09-2005, 10:22 PM   #7
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U2kitten:

I agree with your stance on this issue and all - but we really have to be careful with our wording, and how we react to those who do not agree with us. For example, I try to avoid using four letter words excessively (or at all) even if restraining myself makes me sick. Same thing with terminology - I try to avoid the "no value for life" types of comments as much as possible. It may be my gut feeling about the particular issue, but we should always make an attempt to understand why our opponents stand the way they do.

I appreciate Pax for giving us the freedom to speak our minds, although we all realize that she isn't very fond of abortion threads. Even more importantly than our stance on the issue is the dialogue we use to communicate our message. If we can't be reasonable with an issue - no matter how passionate about it we are - all we are doing is shooting bullets. Abortion is a very sensative subject for women who have thought about making or have made that decision, as well as anyone on here who may have been adopted instead, and possibly felt unwanted by their natural parents.

Personally, I feel that labeling people "anti-life" or "anti-choice" is pretty harsh. Off the top of my head, I can't think of anyone that is either, except Communist China who manages to be both at the same time. I was considering starting a thread on their One Child Policy, but like Pax said, we need a while to cool off before we discuss this issue.

I encourage all of you to speak your minds on this issue when the time is relevant. I've learned a lot about those of you who have, and it's allowed me to understand my opponents much better.

Silence = Death
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Old 01-09-2005, 10:28 PM   #8
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The abortion issue is very divisive over here too, so I try to stay out of those kind of debates as well.
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Old 01-10-2005, 01:42 AM   #9
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I don't believe regardless of which view you take, that this issue along with a few others, should ever be silenced. And I don't mean this as some childish dig at the thread closure. I figured that was what you were referring to kitten when you made that post, but it's a shame you couldn't explain it further to those who weren't sure. That's both a sign of an incomplete discussion and one which had trouble through wording.
It does show that this topic can be discussed, but it needs clarity and respect. If everyone makes that effort, these threads should continue for as long as the participants want. It's up to us in here.
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Old 01-10-2005, 04:39 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by Angela Harlem

It does show that this topic can be discussed, but it needs clarity and respect. If everyone makes that effort, these threads should continue for as long as the participants want. It's up to us in here.
I think this is the key statement here.
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Old 01-10-2005, 05:44 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by Angela Harlem
I don't believe regardless of which view you take, that this issue along with a few others, should ever be silenced. And I don't mean this as some childish dig at the thread closure. I figured that was what you were referring to kitten when you made that post, but it's a shame you couldn't explain it further to those who weren't sure.
I was gone a lot that day, if I had seen the responses my post was getting before it got closed I certainly would have clarified. Since I didn't get to I felt it was important to state it somewhere else.

As far as this being the time to speak out, I totally agree! That's why I can't shut up. The problem with the anti-abortion movement is that too many of its activists are goody goody religious types who are too 'nice' to say the things I do (though they are thinking them and know they're true) so they resort to speeches about religion that do not help and actually turn people off, even drawing the old 'don't force your beliefs on me' thing. I feel it must be adddressed from a totally different direction. I will stop here before I get into another rant, I didn't want this to be that type of thread. This is about a lady who died arguing over this issue and how out of hand it gets
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Old 01-10-2005, 06:54 AM   #12
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There have been some good points made in this thread, and I'm glad that people realize that individual post-ers need to take responsibility for what they say and how they say it. I'm glad, too, that people take passionate stances on what they care about and why they care about it.

I would like people to keep these things in mind, surely, but at the same time discussions about controversial subjects like abortion will ALWAYS come up in FYM, for as long as FYM continues to exist. And this is hardly the only place in the world to talk about these issues, too. I'm happy to let threads go on as long as people can keep their respective cools, regardless of how I personally feel about threads' existences (and we all know how I feel, sometimes ), but I--and the other mods and supermods, in case anyone is interested, as we have discussed this issue among ourselves--feel it's best to continue with the current policy of closing threads when they get a bit too hot.

I said it before and I'll say it again: FYM, and the rest of Interference, is NOT a free for all, nor should it be. We are trying to build a community here, and while some people may not be interested in having what is, in the end, fairly gentle policing of the forums, it is what it is. There are other sites which are far less closely moderated if that's your poison, and I mean no disrespect or rudeness by suggesting that people who are interested in that kind of thing go elsewhere. But here we are trying to build a more friendly (or at least civil) atmosphere, and by putting up with the kind of language and tone that existed in the last abortion thread, we defeat that goal.

Closing the thread, rather than singling out one or two post-ers for criticism or punishment, sends the message that there is more than one party or side "at fault" for the environment that has been created in a specific thread (which is true about the abortion thread, IMHO, and other mods agreed). It sends the message that nothing--NOTHING--merits the unkindness and condescension that was going on.

Like I said, there are other places to go. Don't bring that kind of thing into FYM. The mod team works way too hard to make Interference a nice place to let this kind of thing go.

And now, in the interest of upholding another tender Interference policy, I will close this thread as it is a spinoff.

Please feel free to PM or e-mail me or any other mod or admin with further comments or questions. And to those of you who have PMd and e-mailed me recently about this issue...your messages do matter to me and I will be answering them shortly. I've been a lousy combination of ill, busy, and apathetic for the past couple of days, and that's ending now.

Thanks again.
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