God's gender? And more importantly, does it matter? - Page 4 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 12-08-2004, 07:35 AM   #46
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,648
Local Time: 01:27 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by thacraic


He is refered to as He first off. He is refered to as Father as well. He did reproduce with Mary, not by means of copulation, but His seed (kinda have to be a male to have those lying around) was placed in her and as a result she conceived a Son . The manner in which His many names are written in Hebrew are masculine, same goes for the Greek. Even the Holy Spirit, something that you would not even consider being a gender specific entity, is referred to as He, not as an it.
I think you may be taking the seed part a little too literal. If you believe God literally had a physical male "seed" in which to place in Mary in order to concieve then I think you are truly belittling the power of God. I think God's power transends any human means unto which you and I think possible. To place a gender onto God limits God. If God was truly a he, then he would only be limited to those attributes of the human male, physically and emotionally. The reason most do is in order to visualize or relate. The reason Jesus was male is simply that due to the times a female would not have been taken seriously at all.
__________________

__________________
BVS is online now  
Old 12-08-2004, 07:37 AM   #47
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,648
Local Time: 01:27 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by sharky
And of course, remember that God's name according to Moses was "I am as I am" and not "My name is Frank. Get it right. Moses!"
__________________

__________________
BVS is online now  
Old 12-08-2004, 07:53 AM   #48
Acrobat
 
thacraic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Georgia
Posts: 350
Local Time: 02:27 PM
Hi sharky,

I have looked into the names of God. I have a link if you want to follow it....

http://www.twinbridgescanoe.com/gods...es_of_god.html


And BonoVoxSuperstar,

I am viewing it as literal I suppose. I mean it goes something like, Gabriel came to Mary and told her what was going to happen, she couldn't believe it, was humbled by it naturally, but replied faithfully and willingly to accept what God had planned for her. At that stage His power over shadowed her and she became with child. I see that as though she she became pregnant through insemination.

At any rate what about the other things I mentioned in reference to the actual text in Scriptures? Also, I don't think associating a gender with God limits Him. God trancends OUR notions of gender. You are addressing gender in the way PEOPLE view it. People are the ones that can't get past gender, either in that everything has to come down to male vs. female, or everything has to be set up in non-gender specific terms. That God is a man may be difficult for some people to accept because of their views on men/ women relations in THIS world. That is the point I made. I thought it was fairly clear. Sorry...

Carrie
__________________
thacraic is offline  
Old 12-08-2004, 08:05 AM   #49
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,648
Local Time: 01:27 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by thacraic
Hi sharky,

I have looked into the names of God. I have a link if you want to follow it....

http://www.twinbridgescanoe.com/gods...es_of_god.html


And BonoVoxSuperstar,

I am viewing it as literal I suppose. I mean it goes something like, Gabriel came to Mary and told her what was going to happen, she couldn't believe it, was humbled by it naturally, but replied faithfully and willingly to accept what God had planned for her. At that stage His power over shadowed her and she became with child. I see that as though she she became pregnant through insemination.

At any rate what about the other things I mentioned in reference to the actual text in Scriptures? Also, I don't think associating a gender with God limits Him. God trancends OUR notions of gender. You are addressing gender in the way PEOPLE view it. People are the ones that can't get past gender, either in that everything has to come down to male vs. female, or everything has to be set up in non-gender specific terms. That God is a man may be difficult for some people to accept because of their views on men/ women relations in THIS world. That is the point I made. I thought it was fairly clear. Sorry...

Carrie
I know the story or Mary but yet again insemination is a human scientific process very primitive to that of God.

Gender is a human aspect how else am I suppose to view it. Gender is something assigned to humans and animals. We use gender to separate those who have certain physical traits and organs from those who have other physical traits and organs. That's all gender is. To assign God a gender all you are is doing is saying God has those physical traits and organs and therefore belongs in that category. To say God is male you are making him in our image rather than the other way around. Therefore you are limiting him to two legs, a hairy chest, and a penis. Why would God need any of these things?
__________________
BVS is online now  
Old 12-08-2004, 08:34 AM   #50
Acrobat
 
thacraic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Georgia
Posts: 350
Local Time: 02:27 PM
Hiya BVS (hope its ok I call you that),


Insemination is a biological process which is required for a woman to conceive. This could end up going completely off-topic so I will try to keep it simple and just say the entire universe which God created (provided one believes He created it) runs on scientific processes. It is human's understanding of science (even Newton's!) that in comparisson to God, is primative. I won't go back and forth with you on wether or not Mary's pregnancy was a result of an acutal seed inseminating an egg and then that egg attaching itself to the uteran wall. I believe it was, maybe you do, maybe you don't. Nothing more that can be said there.

God DID make man in His image, I don't see how anything I have said would state otherwise. If I recall, the first person God made did in fact have, two legs, a hairy chest (maybe, maybe not, depending on how literal you take renaissance artists rendering of Adam ) and a penis. Granted God doesn't need any of those things, I give you that but why (again if you believe God did create man, the universe etc) did He make Adam as He did and then say it was in His image? (Actually He said let us make man in Our image, which is a reference of course to Christ (you know He was present at the creation of the world... etc...)

Anyway that is all I have time for, for now . I have drank 4 cups of coffee and smoked 6 cigarettes, well I let four of them burn out sitting in the ashtray uggggggggh!, whilst sitting here so I need to get cracking on all things domestic.

Take care and speak soon,

Carrie
__________________
thacraic is offline  
Old 12-08-2004, 08:40 AM   #51
Acrobat
 
thacraic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Georgia
Posts: 350
Local Time: 02:27 PM
Oh one final thing BVS... sorry...

I am speaking more of how people view gender in terms of mentality not in terms of penises versus vaginas.

Ok off now... lol.. bye!
__________________
thacraic is offline  
Old 12-08-2004, 08:40 AM   #52
Acrobat
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Queen Lurker
Posts: 323
Local Time: 07:27 PM
sharky, you're engaged to a Jewish man, yes? I was wondering if you were going to have a Jewish wedding. When my brother and sis-in-law got married, my sis had to take classes on Judaism in order to have a Jewish ceremony.

Anyway. Sorry for the major thread derailment but sharky, you seem to know more about Judaism than I do... and I'm Jewish! Time for me to brush up and be a little more observant!
__________________
adam's_mistress is offline  
Old 12-08-2004, 01:35 PM   #53
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,648
Local Time: 01:27 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by thacraic
Hiya BVS (hope its ok I call you that),

God DID make man in His image, I don't see how anything I have said would state otherwise. If I recall, the first person God made did in fact have, two legs, a hairy chest (maybe, maybe not, depending on how literal you take renaissance artists rendering of Adam ) and a penis. Granted God doesn't need any of those things, I give you that but why (again if you believe God did create man, the universe etc) did He make Adam as He did and then say it was in His image? (Actually He said let us make man in Our image, which is a reference of course to Christ (you know He was present at the creation of the world... etc...)

Yes everyone calls me BVS, it's completely fine. It's much preferred over some of the names some would like to call me.

I believe God created us in God's likeness or image. That being said just like a painting, drawing, or reflection the image is not exactly like the original. So when anyone tries and pen human gender attributes to God I believe they are reversing the process. In the process of God creating man in God's image we may have gained gender. God has no reason or for that fact no one to procreate with so really there would be no need for gender. Having a gender would be useless therefore imperfect, and I don't believe God to be imperfect.

Now if you're speaking about gender in mentality or emotional standards you're still pigeon-holing and reducing God's strength by defining a gender. God would only be able to do half of what God is capable of.

God describes itself as the Alpha and the Omega. God is all encompassing. Can't be that if you have a gender. You can't be all if you are only male or female.
__________________
BVS is online now  
Old 12-08-2004, 04:40 PM   #54
Acrobat
 
thacraic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Georgia
Posts: 350
Local Time: 02:27 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar

God describes itself as the Alpha and the Omega. God is all encompassing. Can't be that if you have a gender. You can't be all if you are only male or female.
Hiya BVS,

As to the other parts of your post I sorta edited it out for brevity. And as far as commenting on those parts, I don't really have anything else to say that wouldn't be a repeat of statments I have made in previous posts.

However I am still curisous to know what your views are on the actual Scriptural references to the gender of God. How every single reference to God in Hebrew and Greek are masculine nouns (all save the passages in I Kings which I pointed out to in my post to dano.)

Now as far as God being "all encompassing" etc and "can't be all if you are only male or female" and then using the quote about the Alpha and the Omega as God describing "itself" I do have a few things to say.

It was Jesus who described Himself as the Alpha and the Omega. All three references of that are found in the book of Revelation. Jesus said it to John and then told John to write what he had seen etc. Jesus was saying that He is the begining and the end. It is in regards to Christ being there at the beginging of the world( which corresponds to the countless passages about the creation of the world i.e. "through Him all things were made without Him nothing was made" etc), and how ultimately He is going to be there at the end. Also it denotes infinity, Jesus just is. Jesus is "I Am" as is God (they are one in the same as I see it). Just because there is no time in God does not mean there is no gender.

At any rate, essentially what I am driving at here is this, I just don't see a connection here between the Alpha/Omega quote and the debate of God being male or female or asexual or whatever. Especially seeing as how Jesus, being a male, is the one who said it.

Take Care,

Carrie
__________________
thacraic is offline  
Old 12-08-2004, 04:46 PM   #55
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 10,881
Local Time: 02:27 PM
I wonder how many female writers of the old testament there are

Could that explain the masculine forms of the words?
__________________
Dreadsox is offline  
Old 12-08-2004, 05:13 PM   #56
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,648
Local Time: 01:27 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by thacraic


Hiya BVS,

As to the other parts of your post I sorta edited it out for brevity. And as far as commenting on those parts, I don't really have anything else to say that wouldn't be a repeat of statments I have made in previous posts.

However I am still curisous to know what your views are on the actual Scriptural references to the gender of God. How every single reference to God in Hebrew and Greek are masculine nouns (all save the passages in I Kings which I pointed out to in my post to dano.)

Now as far as God being "all encompassing" etc and "can't be all if you are only male or female" and then using the quote about the Alpha and the Omega as God describing "itself" I do have a few things to say.

It was Jesus who described Himself as the Alpha and the Omega. All three references of that are found in the book of Revelation. Jesus said it to John and then told John to write what he had seen etc. Jesus was saying that He is the begining and the end. It is in regards to Christ being there at the beginging of the world( which corresponds to the countless passages about the creation of the world i.e. "through Him all things were made without Him nothing was made" etc), and how ultimately He is going to be there at the end. Also it denotes infinity, Jesus just is. Jesus is "I Am" as is God (they are one in the same as I see it). Just because there is no time in God does not mean there is no gender.

At any rate, essentially what I am driving at here is this, I just don't see a connection here between the Alpha/Omega quote and the debate of God being male or female or asexual or whatever. Especially seeing as how Jesus, being a male, is the one who said it.

Take Care,

Carrie
Well as to all the male references, that's easy, any man at that time(hell even today) would have a hard time reffering to God as a woman. It's just easy to refer to God as a he.

If God was male then why didn't he just come down himself, why send a human form of itself?

I still don't understand how you can think God is all powerful but reduce him down to a gender just because of pronouns used in the Bible? Placing a gender just limits God. But we'll probably have to agree to disagree.
__________________
BVS is online now  
Old 12-08-2004, 07:15 PM   #57
Acrobat
 
thacraic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Georgia
Posts: 350
Local Time: 02:27 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Well as to all the male references, that's easy, any man at that time(hell even today) would have a hard time reffering to God as a woman. It's just easy to refer to God as a he.

If God was male then why didn't he just come down himself, why send a human form of itself?

I still don't understand how you can think God is all powerful but reduce him down to a gender just because of pronouns used in the Bible? Placing a gender just limits God. But we'll probably have to agree to disagree.
Hiya BVS,

Well He did come down to visit us.. in the form of Jesus. I think you may disagree with that though? In terms of Jesus being God? I don't know though, I don't want to presume anything.

Yeh thats cool though... agree to disagree. It is always fun though to discuss things, even if the person(s) you are conversing with does not agree. Convincing someone to agree with you , in my opinion, isn't the point of discourse. Just the sheer nature of exchanging ideas and the energy that comes from that its what appeals to me.

I look forward to future exchanges :-).

Take care,

Carrie
__________________
thacraic is offline  
Old 12-08-2004, 07:29 PM   #58
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,648
Local Time: 01:27 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by thacraic




Well He did come down to visit us.. in the form of Jesus. I think you may disagree with that though? In terms of Jesus being God? I don't know though, I don't want to presume anything.
I don't disagree with that at all. But if God already had a gender and looked like us then why not just come down the way you are? Why a separate form? Doesn't make sense to me, that's all...
__________________
BVS is online now  
Old 12-08-2004, 11:17 PM   #59
Rock n' Roll Doggie
ALL ACCESS
 
UnforgettableLemon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Lansdale, PA
Posts: 7,286
Local Time: 02:27 PM
Actually, there is no biblical evidence that Christ was present at the creation. A lot of that has to do with tradition and literature. (Milton has Christ as the creator of the world in "Paradise Lost"; Milton also gave us the specific image of the apple as the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil)
__________________
UnforgettableLemon is offline  
Old 12-09-2004, 06:35 AM   #60
Blue Crack Addict
 
nbcrusader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Southern California
Posts: 22,071
Local Time: 11:27 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by UnforgettableLemon
Actually, there is no biblical evidence that Christ was present at the creation.
Actually, there absolutely is. Read John 1:1-3; Colossians 1:16 and Hebrews 1:2
__________________

__________________
nbcrusader is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:27 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com