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Old 12-06-2004, 10:50 AM   #16
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Originally posted by paxetaurora
You're stepping into dangerous territory here.
Should we start an Ephesians 5:22 thread?
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Old 12-06-2004, 10:50 AM   #17
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Originally posted by paxetaurora


You're stepping into dangerous territory here.

As a woman, I turn to both men and other women for comfort. And my male friends and companions have turned to me for comfort, as have my women friends.
I'm not out claiming God is the male or anything. Yes, men do turn to women for comfort at times, of course. In scripture, especially the form you might receive from James - we're called adultresses for our sins. Not in a genderly form, but we are probably given this way of looking at it to better understand God. Basically saying, think of your spouse committing adultery. That's how God sees the sin in the world.
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Old 12-06-2004, 10:51 AM   #18
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No, we should not.
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Old 12-06-2004, 10:52 AM   #19
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I understand the adultery metaphor, of course, but I nevertheless think that gendering it is irresponsible.
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Old 12-06-2004, 10:55 AM   #20
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I try to avoid it, but when you have to use a gender term, it's not easy to avoid those.
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Old 12-06-2004, 12:19 PM   #21
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Many of my theology professors (Church of the Brethren) don't even take the man in God's image to be literal, rather the image replicaton is intellectual and spiritual. I'm not sure what to make of it, but it is an interesting perspective
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Old 12-06-2004, 12:30 PM   #22
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I think I'd agree to that perspective.
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Old 12-06-2004, 02:54 PM   #23
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God doesn't have a gender.
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Old 12-06-2004, 03:02 PM   #24
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Originally posted by nbcrusader
He has asked us to refer to him as Abba, Father. That's it and that's as far as it should go.
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Old 12-06-2004, 03:07 PM   #25
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This proobably completely irrelevant but anyway......

We were bored at work one day and pasted the first part of Genisis into that online gender writer determining thingie. The result was that Genisis was written by a female.

For what thats worth.
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Old 12-06-2004, 03:11 PM   #26
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That's funny beli, thanks for sharing that.
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Old 12-06-2004, 04:22 PM   #27
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I've always pictured God as an eldery male (kind of the whole kindly grandfather image), for some reason, but I'm perfectly willing to accept the idea of God being genderless or female as well. It doesn't matter to me what form God takes, all that really matters to me personally is just to know they're taking care of everybody in this world (and in whatever afterworld that exists out there).

Angela
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Old 12-06-2004, 04:47 PM   #28
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People projecting their own pantheon of paternal pictures upon God.
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Old 12-06-2004, 06:05 PM   #29
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GOD Credits

Born George Roger Waters on the 6th September 1943 in Great Bookham, Surrey, Great Britain. Roger's early life was stuck a cruel blow when his Father, Eric was killed during the second World War. Roger would spend his childhood growing up with his Mother and an older brother called John, on the outskirts of the University town of Cambridge.
______ In his early twenties, while still attending Regent Street Poly in London, Roger formed a band with fellow students, Richard Wright, Nick Mason and Clive Metcalf. The band called itself Sigma 6 and despite being very musically challenged, had their manager Ken Chapman scour clubs in London for bookings. Roger had become a fan of 'The Rolling Stones and would try to imitate their guitar sound.
______ Ken Chapman soon left the failing band and this led to many personnel changes and name changes including T-Set, The Architectural Abdabs and The Screaming Abdabs. A now very rare clipping, soon appeared in The Regent Street Poly Magazine, which described pop's next big thing, yes the Screaming Abdabs. Alas the hype failed to launch the Abdabs and Roger started to think seriously about passing the exams ahead of him.

______ It was probably moving into the lower level of Mike Leonard's Highgate flat, that changed the course of Roger's career. Mike Leonard was not only the landlord but very interested in what was going on in youth culture. Mike was a lecturer at the nearby Hornsey Art College, and was very interested in exploring the artistic links between lights and music. Soon the impossible happened a musician in Bob Klose became interested in what Roger, Nick and Rick were doing. Also around the same time another ex Cambridge and childhood friend of Roger's, Syd Barrett started attending the sessions in the basement of Mike's flat. Both Bob and Syd proved good enough to relegate Rick and Roger to keyboards and Bass guitar respectively. Bob Klose proved almost to be too much of a musician for Syd and they would often clash on the lay outs of songs.
______ When Bob bailed out, Syd seemed the natural leader and had endless ideas to offer up to the other 3 members. Syd had certainly dabbled with soft drugs and seemed interested in Eastern religions and anything that could fuel his imagination. When the group appeared at the Countdown Club in 1965, they were billed as The Pink Floyd Sound. A name that may have been made up on the spot due to their performing name clashing on the night. The name Pink Floyd is a Syd invention and came from him marrying two Georgian blues guitarists names, Pink Anderson and Floyd Council. For much of 1965 and the early part of 1966 the group would play R & B covers. But with a bit of zeal from Rick on keyboards and Syd on guitar they would often make 5 minute tracks last 25 minutes.
______ Their was an air of arrogance from the young group as they tackled well known numbers, while completely altering the overall sound. The group mainly got bookings within the M1 corridor of London, regularly travelling up and down from London to Cambridge. In early 1966 Roger and the rest of the group started to think seriously about their careers and an invitation from Peter Jenner and Andrew King to manage them, was accepted. It wasn't long before Syd had penned some songs, namely Interstella Overdrive and Astronomy Domine. As the Summer of Love approached Pink Floyd having dropped the word Sound became regulars at Free School happenings all over West London.
______ The Pink Floyd, as they were called for a short period, enjoyed some single chart success (UK) with the songs Arnold Layne and See Emily Play both written by Syd Barrett. Both songs would not appear on the Floyd's first album.
______ Pink Floyd's first album released by EMI would feature one track penned by Roger Waters, Take Up Thy Stethoscope And Walk. The album was an underground success and it's title Piper at the Gates of Dawn only added to the mysticism of Syd Barrett. Early chart success and constant touring was hiding a secret, behind the glossy, trippy veneer, Pink Floyd's leader and song writer was having problems. After a doomed trip to the USA things came to a head and by Christmas of 1967 plans had been made to bring in a fifth Floyd member David Gilmour. It was felt he could cover for Syd, if he needed a break mid tour.



______ By the time the second album was released it became clear Dave had in fact all but replaced Syd. Roger's own writing in the absence of Syd had blossomed. The new album titled, A Saucerful of Secrets, would feature only one Syd Barrett track. Roger Waters would later confess he used a book of Chinese poetry to aide his song, Set The Controls For The Heart Of The Sun. A Li Ho poem in particular has the lines ``witness the man who raved at the wall as he wrote his question to heaven." Also another poem by Li Shang-Yin, has the lines ``watch little by little the night turn around'', ``countless the twigs which tremble in dawn'' and ``one inch of love is an inch of ashes."
______ So the 6ft 2, bass player Roger Waters, was now steering the groups future. It was clear he could not imitate Syd Barrett's style and didn't want to. In hindsight the next few albums seem to be building up to what would become Meddle. Over the years from 1968 to 1971, the group had built up a healthy following on the live circuit and could devote more and more time to exploring ideas in the studio. The live concerts had also become more and more ground breaking. Meddle would earn brilliant reviews and build on their previous success, Atom Heart Mother in America. Despite sales being healthy, Pink Floyd were still seen as an art group by many and it was feared they would never crack the mainstream in both the USA and Europe.




In January 1972, at The Dome in Brighton, Pink Floyd unleashed Eclipse on a spellbound audience. Roger Waters had been working on the project for 3 months and had a good feeling about the work-in-prgress. His decision to tour the as yet unreleased album amazed fans, journalists and critics. But Roger had good reason behind the madness, he felt playing the album live would fine tune the future album and improve the band's playing and understanding of the songs. Behind the scenes EMI were throwing their full weight behind the now renamed project, Dark Side of the Moon. On the 3rd of March 1973 the gatefold album, complete with simple black cover and prism, began flying off the shelves. And really since that day they have not stopped selling, the album sounded like nothing else. Roger, would later comment, " that's it we had achieved the dream." But the record buying public and EMI were desperate for another Dark Side.
______ The album that did follow two years later was at first critically dismissed, but Wish You Were Here had a dimension to it that seemed to demand close attention. It would have been oh so easy to recreate Dark Side of the Moon, but Roger forever the perfectionist was pushing the band far beyond their contempararies.

______ Roger, had built up a reputation as a wordsmith and often listeners to the albums would read into the lyrics as much as studying the music. The pressure of making Wish You Were Here coupled with the fact all four members were married, had led to divides within the group. Basically the four band members ceased being close friends, Nick still had time for weekends at Roger's house and to a lesser point David would socialise with Rick. The days of the band being a band of like minded friends were over.


______ 1976 was the first year, Pink Floyd had not toured since turning professional in 1967, a well due rest had been earned. Roger set about reworking 2 songs that had been played live on the 1975, Wish you Were Here tour. These two songs became Dogs and Pigs, and conceptually fitted into the Floyd's next project, Animals. The Orwellian concept depicted all humans as either Pigs, Dogs or Sheep. The only way to satisfy demand and promoters was to take the Animals tour into football stadiums, this meant new quad speakers, inflatables and a host of special effects were designed so everybody could experience the concert to its full. The tour, as Roger described, "turned into a nightmare." As the Floyd played away half the audience would indulge in their own forms of entertainment. Fireworks and fist fights would often accompany drowned out Floyd classics. By July, Roger's anxiety could easily be sensed he no longer sang from the heart but greeted every show as an enemy that needed defeating.
. _____ The four MSG gigs, in New York, would see Roger regularly clash with so called fans. Roger's alienation from the whole thing was obvious. The final nail in the Animals tour coffin, came at the Olympic Stadium, Montreal, Quebec, Canada. Here, Roger ran the gauntlet with over eager drunk individuals who found humour in launching glass bottles onto the stage. The huge crowd never settled and the whole day became a sad advert for stadium rock. Either Roger was going to take early retirement or fight to be heard.
. _____ As the other members of Pink Floyd sailed into the 1978 sunset. Roger wrestled with an idea that had been born from his alienation with the last tour. He had a simple enough idea, he wanted a wall between him and his audience. That way he could do what he wanted and they the same. But how could such a madcap idea fit into possibly an album and tour. The Wall, would be Roger's masterpiece eclipsing even Darkside of the Moon. When released in 1980 it was a double album (transcribed Innerview with Jim Ladd 1980), Gerald Scarfe a satirical cartoonist who had done some animation for the Floyd back in 1974 was back. His remit was not only to decorate the inner album cover but also contribute some film animation for the film, 'TheWall.
. _____ After tempting his hand and directing the film, Roger called on Alan Parker to direct his masterpiece. Out went live footage form The Wall concerts, in came well photographed cinematic paragraphs. The Wall, the film was released in 1982 and although well received by fans of the group, the over impression was one of confusion. Roger, later confessed he was far from happy with Alan's interpretation of his work. Claiming, "it was so bloody miserable."
______ As the promised, More Bricks album approached in 1982, Roger had a flash of inspiration. Driven by his anger at the Falklands War Roger wrote The Final Cut in a relatively short time. He had now given up on waiting for Dave or Nick to offer ideas, Rick had left the group after the Wall tour; so Roger went headlong into the album. The finished album would define and divide Pink Floyd fans. Some found it too wordy while others marvelled at it's lyrical content. Certainly the lyrics proved that Roger was growing stronger on each album. The inner sleeve read more like a poem than simple rock lyrics. Roger was obviously pouring out his heart on what must have been a personal album, given he lost his Father in a war.
______ The album was dedicated to his Father, Eric Fletcher Waters. Some saw this as too personal but the truth was Pink Floyd were far from a group anymore, had Roger not penned, The Final Cut the wait for a proper Pink Floyd album would have been long and patient. The Final Cut is now seen as a solo album that Roger just happened to use Dave and Nick on, perhaps that is the way Roger would prefer it.


Roger's next project, would not involve the other members of Pink Floyd. The time had come for Roger to take control of his work. 'The Pros and Cons of Hitchhiking, was in its demo form played to the other members of Pink Floyd way back in 1978. Roger gave two choices to the band, 'The Wall or Pro's, the one they didn't choose, Roger explained, he would pursue as a solo record.
______ The finished album's credit list read like a who's who of the music industry. The record was not received well on release, ironically the people who wrote bad press about the album back in 1983 now admit their judgment was shortsighted. The album did not reach the Pink Floyd buying market, as Roger's name was not well known. Pink Floyd had remained a faceless band throughout the seventies, very few fans knew or cared who was in the group. This had many benefits, but when the time came, and Roger needed to sell a product with his name it proved very difficult. The album spawned two tours, again promoting the tours was very difficult. Roger resisted the temptation to use the 'Pink Floyd name to sell shows. Eric Clapton appeared on the album and toured as part of Roger's band for the first 1984 tour.

______ The rumour now persisted Pink Floyd were finished. Rick's 1981 departure, Roger's solo album and no Final Cut tour seemed to confirm this as fact. Finally in 1985 Roger sought about dissolving the group. David Gilmour felt that Pink Floyd could go on without Roger Waters. So the pair took their views to court. Roger felt as the chief song writer and driving force behind the band, the name Pink Floyd would be a lie without him. The main stumbling block was, that Pink Floyd were still locked into an EMI contract, and Roger would lose royalties if Pink Floyd (with or without him) did not produce more records. Roger walked away, subsequent Pink Floyd albums are very weak, when compared to the Roger era. This must offer some satisfaction to Roger.



______ In 1986 Roger replaced David Bowie as main composer for the movie 'When the Wind Blows. The vinyl release would see side 2 dedicated to Roger and the Bleeding Hearts Band, side 1 was a mixture of artists. The album served as a nice appetizer for Roger's next release a few months later Radio Kaos. Prior to release a teaser single was released Radio Waves, but this failed to gain regular radio play. Although a later release of 'The Tide is Turning, from the same album, did get onto the Radio 1 play list. When Roger took the amazing Kaos show on the road he found himself up against a familiar name. David Glimour's Pink Floyd were also on the road belting out Roger's songs to 80,000 people while (sometimes in the same city) Roger's arena shows failed to sell out. Roger later confessed he was competing against himself and losing! Anyone who did attend the Radio Kaos shows came away very impressed with the almost theatrical production of the whole thing. The Radio Kaos tracks sounding much better live than on the album and the tour included several tracks that did not make the album, Molly's Song and Going to Live in L.A.
. _____ After two memorable shows at Wembley, with the Kaos tour, Roger then went quiet; rumours of a Radio Kaos 2 project soon proved fruitless. Then it was confirmed Roger was working on an opera. Europe rejoiced in 1989 as the Berlin wall came down, Leonard Cheshire was pondering an event to bring awareness to a new charity he had started, 'The Memorial Fund For Disaster Relief. The result was a massive one off performance of 'The Wall, the stage would be erected where only 10 months earlier the wall had stood. Germany came to a stand still that day as everyone whether a fan of Roger's or not celebrated the concert. The star studded concert was broadcast live around the planet, and would later win an award for 'Media Event of the Year. The performance also yielded a live video and live album, rightly so people now knew who Roger Waters was. The attendance figure for the evening was put at a conservative 300,000, at least 200,000 tickets were sold and more flooded in as security opened the exit doors to stop people getting crushed outside the arena. The arena was a dusty plain called Potsdamer Platz, the size of the crowd set a world record, for a one off concert.

. _____ In 1991 Roger was invited to Seville's Guitar Expo, which saw him do several tracks, one a new song. Roger also made mention of a forth coming album. That album would confirm Roger's ability to produce amazing conceptual pieces beyond Pink Floyd. Amused to Death continues to get more fans year on year. But alas at the time of it's release it failed to sell the numbers required for Roger to embark on a full theatrical show. Roger returned to work on his opera, now entitled Ca Ira. If fans were frustrated with the delay from Kaos to Amused to Death. The delay from Amused to Death to Roger's next project was simply too painful to remember.

______ Then in late 1998 rumours on the internet, of an American tour involving Roger Waters spread like wild fire. No longer was the name Roger Waters, a mystery everyone knew who he was and what he stood for. The 1999 'In the Flesh Tour, saw Roger almost tip toe his way back onto the touring circuit. Playing venues more accustomed to welcoming up and coming artists, the connection of a true artist, standing in front of a few thousand people was breath taking. Another tour of the USA quickly followed in 2000, bigger venues replaced smaller ones as ticket demand went through the roof. The regular inclusion of a new track, Each Small Candle, offered faith of a new studio album. Roger did release a live album and DVD of the show, but no studio album. Europe, waited eagerly for the 2001 'In the flesh tour, but due to Andy Fairweather-Low and Katie Kissoon (key members of Roger's band) having commitments with Eric Clapton, Roger put a pause to touring for a year.
______When the tour itinerary for the 2002 'In the Flesh tour was released, even the most die hard of Roger fans were amazed at the expanse of the dates. It would be a 'World Tour spanning 5 months. It was apparent Roger's confidence was in overdrive. The pure relief of fans in such countries like Chile, Japan, South Korea, Brazil and India that a performer of Roger's status was visiting their homes, led to a global out pouring of emotion. After the tour's last date Glastonbury, Roger has not been quiet. Guest performances at the Jeff Beck concerts, Timothy White's tribute concerts 'Music to My Ears and Whip Craic have only strengthened the belief that Roger is very content with what he is doing. A new studio album seems very likely for release in 2005 (supported by a large tour) and Roger seems to be in a very strong position, to make it his most successful (upon release), album so far. Early 2005 should see see the release of Roger's opera 'Ca Ira, the long anticipated classical opera will be available as a 2 cd set and in both French and English and released on Sony Classical. Live performances of Ca Ira, although not featuring Roger may also happen at some time in 2005. Roger's rock album should get a release in 2006 followed by a USA/Europe tour.
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Old 12-06-2004, 07:26 PM   #30
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Ok...I love Pink Floyd....what does it have to say about God's gender though?
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