God Off Money

[Anthony]

Not just Christians... can you share the last time a Christian murdered anyone over sexual orientation?

When I said Christians, I didn't mean people who wore the label and hence felt it was their duty to go and kill homosexuals in the name of religion. I can't remember the case you cited off hand and I have no idea if the murderer was a Christian or not (evidently, he couldn't have been a very good Christian); my point was the people commit murder, whether Christian or Mulsim or whatever. Either way, my 'gripe' is not concerning people getting murdered - a murderer will be tried and convicted regardless of what his thoughts on intolerance was, that is immaterial.

(this thread really lost topic... .... .... yep

It has and it hasn't. It has to the extent that we're no longer talking about dollar bills, but it hasn't in that we got to this place through a clear line of debating that started with your contention of the statement that some gripes are heeded more than others.

By saying this, you are essentially arguing that there is NO hatred outside of religion.

Not really.

Ant.

 

[melon]

Maybe these numbskulls are an example of hatred outside of religion?

You'll always find your political nutjobs. But here's the difference: these political nutjobs will never get the time of day in America. Not amongst the GOP. Not even amongst the Democrats. They are as "nutty" as the KKK or the National Alliance. And sure...both of these groups have full constitutional rights to believe what they want. The rest of America has used their constitutional rights to ignore these racists into irrelevance.

But here's where things change: the right-wing nutjobs in Christianity are getting the works. The GOP now caters "anti-filibuster" propaganda through churches. Even the Democrats are trying to figure out how they can cater to this "nutty" demographic. And these are the people who have successfully derailed any gay-positive legislation, and have even made the Democrats wish that gay people would just "go away."

Name other politically powerful groups, besides religion, that prescribe hate. Not just obscure websites of strange people that are politically invisible.

That is my point.

(And apologies that this discussion has gotten so abrasive. I'm arguing "ideas" here; not "people" here.)

Melon

 

[80sU2isBest]

By saying this, you are essentially arguing that there is NO hatred outside of religion.

Mac, don't you know that "religious" people have a monopoly on hatred? I think we purchased all the rights from Hitler.

 

[Anthony]

Mac, don't you know that "religious" people have a monopoly on hatred? I think we purchased all the rights from Hitler.

I have made a consderable effort in maintaining that it is not religion that is hateful, but that many have indeed seen to it that religion backs their own hateful views. I have repeated this almost (forgive the pun) religiously, and I'm sorry if I can't present my views in a clearer fashion.

Ant.

 

[Macfistowannabe]

If I wanted to discuss gay legislation, I would've said so at the beginning of this thread. Anthony and Melon - I respect your views and comments and all, but there are a million other threads on here that are more appropriate for a debate on homosexuality. From time to time, I may participate in them, but please do not disrupt threads to the extent where the actual topic has lost sight. It is fine if you want to use it as an example of how religion plays a role in the government that you feel doesn't belong, but let's stay on topic.

 

[Anthony]

Macfistowannabe;

I agree that the thread took a de-tour (that invited other interests besides Melon and myself), however, I think you will appreciate that as Mod I do keep such interests in mind. As such, I do not believe the thread was disrupted.

But you're right, a more directly linked debate is best suited, and seeing as its your thread anyway, you get first dibs.



Ant.

 

[80sU2isBest]

I have made a consderable effort in maintaining that it is not religion that is hateful, but that many have indeed seen to it that religion backs their own hateful views. I have repeated this almost (forgive the pun) religiously, and I'm sorry if I can't present my views in a clearer fashion.

Ant.

Sorry, Ant, I really didn't mean this against you. I apologize if i made it seem like it was. You have been very polite and reasonable in your arguments. My statement was actually intended for others, who do seem to thing that religious people are hateful and are the cause for everything wrong.

 

[Macfistowannabe]

Name other politically powerful groups, besides religion, that prescribe hate.

Kim Jong Il is a true hate monger if you ever knew one.

 

[Macfistowannabe]

So I suppose as a result of much discussion, the conclusion is that "In God We Trust" breeds hate. How ironic. I would think that there are stronger viewpoints that go against the grain, but it turns out, I'm wrong.

 

[melon]

Kim Jong Il is a true hate monger if you ever knew one.

Kim Jong Il is President of North Korea, not President of the United States. If we want to start talking about world leaders, I could create a large list of leaders I dislike.

Melon

 

[Macfistowannabe]

Fair enough, but how does "In God We Trust" breed hatred?

 

[melon]

Fair enough, but how does "In God We Trust" breed hatred?

As I said before, it's nothing to do with the statement itself, but the intentions of the religious entities that put it there. They didn't stop with "In God We Trust." They want a full-blown theocracy like Iran. Iran is technically a "democracy" too, but has a theocratic overhead, complete with a stacked judiciary, that prevents it from being a real democracy.

Melon

 

[Macfistowannabe]

As I said before, it's nothing to do with the statement itself, but the intentions of the religious entities that put it there. They didn't stop with "In God We Trust." They want a full-blown theocracy like Iran. Iran is technically a "democracy" too, but has a theocratic overhead, complete with a stacked judiciary, that prevents it from being a real democracy.

Melon

I'll be the first to admit that Falwell and Robertson follow that characteristic, but the majority of Americans do not want a theocracy. The majority of Americans also have no problem with "In God WE TRust" on monetary units. I don't want a theocracy, I want a society that is constitutional and humane. When "God" doesn't hurt anyone, there is no argument. You aren't living in a theocracy, even though you might think you are. Nobody is forcing established religion on you. You are free to believe what you want, and you are free to express yourself as much as I am. In God We Trust harms nobody, and any attempt to abolish it on monetary units would be a waste of time and resources.

 

[melon]

You are free to believe what you want, and you are free to express yourself as much as I am.

And, yet, I'm not. I'm not free to express love the way I want.

I happen to love someone from another nation, and there's no mechanism for legal immigration that heterosexual binational couples take for granted on a daily basis.

Melon

 

[Macfistowannabe]

Is that your one and only issue here?

 

[melon]

Is that your one and only issue here?

That's my main issue. Now petition your Congressmen.

Melon

 

[Macfistowannabe]

That's my main issue. Now petition your Congressmen.

Out of curiousity - if the democratic party dropped gun control, aboriton, safe working conditions, and cut health care, would you still side with them?

 

[melon]

Out of curiousity - if the democratic party dropped gun control, aboriton, safe working conditions, and cut health care, would you still side with them?

Gun control - I'm increasingly uninterested in it. Michael Moore, of all people, convinced me of that.

Abortion - I've already been torn on this issue for a long time. On one hand, I do think women who have abortions are killing living beings. On the other hand, I look to before Roe v. Wade, and women were still having abortions--just using unsafe, more creative methods. And the wealthy, of course, could just fly to another nation where it was legal and fly home as if nothing happened. In light of those facts, I lean towards "pro-choice" in the legal realm, while if anyone asked me personally for advice on abortion, I'd unquestioningly tell them not to do it.

Safe working conditions - Very important. No question.

Health care - What "health care"? How can we cut out of "zero"? We have no national health care. I also don't work full time right now, so I have no health care. You can't cut below zero.

I guess a good question to ask is whether I'd be more supportive of the GOP if they were truly "gay friendly"? I don't know. I guess it's like wondering what life would be like if the sky were green instead of blue.

Melon

 

[Macfistowannabe]

Thanks for the response, I do appreciate it.

 

[BrownEyedBoy]

Mac, don't you know that "religious" people have a monopoly on hatred? I think we purchased all the rights from Hitler.

That's about as smart as saying: do you know that "gays" will jump you if you're not too careful.

Drop the stereotypes, man, not every "religious" person is like that.

 

[2Hearts]

That's about as smart as saying: do you know that "gays" will jump you if you're not too careful.

Drop the stereotypes, man, not every "religious" person is like that.

80's was being sarcastic. I thought the statement was hilarious.

 

[BrownEyedBoy]

Woops, it's just that I had my doubts. I apologize, 80's, for the misuderstanding.