God answers prayer, cures girl of cancer.

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I am using someone else's computer now.

and the link / site does not launch / work.


anyways, I am happy if a young girl's cancer mysteriously went away

very happy for her and her loved ones

but, of course it had nothing to do with G-d

because if it did

then when a ten year old boy

prayed to G-d in 1965

that his mother's cancer would go away

well, G-d rejected his prayers
and let her (at age 41) waste away to 80 pounds
before she succumbed to death
 
deep, I'm guessing this is your story that you shared. I'm truly sorry to hear of this. :sad:

God doesn't always answer our prayers, or answer them how we want them to be answered. I've found this to be the case in many of my own prayers on serious matters.
That's doesn't mean he didn't answer the prayer of the girl and her family, though, or that he doesn't continue to answer people's prayers. Many people in the Bible didn't receive answers. This doesn't mean God isn't good, or that he doesn't love us or that he's not in control.

I certainly hope this hasn't kept you from praying. I know that sounds almost cruel to say, but I hope you know that's not how I mean it. Again, I'm sorry about your mother. I truly am.

coemgen
 
verte76 said:
My damn pop-up blocker kept me from watching that video. :mad: It's always nice to read some good news.
Click to expand...

It should give you a button to click to launch the video player, though. Just go to CNN.com if that doesn't come up. It's a very moving story.
 
coemgen said:
deep, I'm guessing this is your story that you shared. I'm truly sorry to hear of this. :sad:

God doesn't always answer our prayers, or answer them how we want them to be answered. I've found this to be the case in many of my own prayers on serious matters.
That's doesn't mean he didn't answer the prayer of the girl and her family, though, or that he doesn't continue to answer people's prayers. Many people in the Bible didn't receive answers. This doesn't mean God isn't good, or that he doesn't love us or that he's not in control.

I certainly hope this hasn't kept you from praying. I know that sounds almost cruel to say, but I hope you know that's not how I mean it. Again, I'm sorry about your mother. I truly am.

coemgen
Click to expand...


but you do get to have your way

in the end,
the 10 year old boy
was smart enough to pray that his mother
(that had wasted away and was wrything with pain) would die

so, yes G-d does answer prayers:wink:

we just got to get the prayers right




seriously,

I have no problem with the G-d concept

he can be there
or not there


people will live
people will die

if you want

G-d to be in charge
then you put him there with Jeffrey Daumer
as he duct tapes his innocent victims to a chair
and drills holes in their head for several days

tell me more, why G-d did not let these people prayers to die, be answerd?
did he let them live, to be toutured for several days
as Daumer ate them?


you might want to rethink your simplistic, pat answers for people that have had life experiences different than your own


again, i have no problem with a G-d concept

some girl beating cancer proves nothing, or that is just what I believe

a book I would highly reccomend
"Why bad things happen to good people"

approaches life and death from a mature, reasoned place,
and debunks all the silly things people say
when someone suffers an unbearable loss.
 
deep said:


a book I would highly reccomend
"Why bad things happen to good people"

approaches life and death from a mature, reasoned place,
and debunks all the silly things people say
when someone suffers an unbearable loss.
Click to expand...

Something you always hear in the movies and TV that really irks me is people saying "It was God's will".

If I ever hear that after the loss of a loved one, I may just have to go upside the person's head. Probably not with my first, but with my thoughts at the least....
 
Have you read the book of Job? Do you realize everything that happened to Paul, writer of much of the New Testament.

These are no "pat" answers. Just answers. I don't understand everything God does. I'm grateful for that though. If I did, he certainly wouldn't be much of a God. He wouldn't be a being greater than me. I believe (there, I said it:wink: ) that God is still in control when bad things happen. I think he makes good things come out of bad things, too. Christ's death certainly was a bad thing - then he went and rose from the dead, conquering death and providing salvation. This would be the ultimate example, I believe.

Why do bad things happen to good people? Define "good" people.
 
one of the myths that is included in the book

a long with

he/she was too good to be on this earth

G-d needed her/him in heaven

some believe they sinned,
so G-d punished them by taking their child


it was 1991/1992 when I read the book, I don't remember it that clear, the author is a rabbi, and a person that still believes in G-d.

there are 5-6 pat answers people invent for themselves, to make it right in their mind, that suffering people have to hear
 
coemgen said:

Why do bad things happen to good people? Define "good" people.
Click to expand...

Also, define bad things.
As a reporter, I've done many stories on people who have beat cancer or are fighting the disease, and they consider it the best thing that's ever happened to them.
 
deep said:
one of the myths that is included in the book

a long with

he/she was too good to be on this earth

G-d needed her/him in heaven

some believe they sinned,
so G-d punished them by taking their child
Click to expand...

Yeah, I don't believe these either.
 
coemgen said:
Have you read the book of Job?
Click to expand...

yes

it is also in the rabbi's book

you should get the book

something bad will happen to you

and we know you are a good person


as for "book of Job"

it really is over rated

we had a thread on it

you may want to look it up in the archives
 
deep said:

some believe they sinned,
so G-d punished them by taking their child
Click to expand...

That's the worst one I've heard of. Can you imagine how that would make someone feel not only about himself, but also about God?
 
:wink: Wow, this is fun. :wink:

The Bible tells us to consider it pure joy when we face trials because it makes us stronger people and draws us closer to God. Christ tells us "blessed are those who mourn" and "blessed are the poor in spirit."

Pat answers? Revolutionary is more like it. You don't hear anyone else saying this as fact.
 
80sU2isBest said:


That's the worst one I've heard of. Can you imagine how that would make someone feel not only about himself, but also about God?
Click to expand...

In the book

people tell themselfs that

because they have lived a life as believers
and they believe their children are innocent

and "G-d is in control"

so it must be
because, pick one? they had sex before marraige, did not attend Church that Easter, whatever. To make sense of their faith, Believers want G-d to be in controll, I think they even post statements to that effect.
 
An argument I have had with Calvinists and Reformed Theologists is about their idea that "God's will is always done". I don't believe that. I think free will and natural disasters/diseases ensure that. For instance, is it God's will that a child be raped by an evil man? I would say not. That act is committed by someone who has a free will and chose to do an evil thing.

Another thing: 2 Peter 3:9 says "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."

1 Timothy 2:4 says "who [God] desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

If God desires all men to be saved, and some are not, then God's desire/will has not been done.

Of course, Calvinists say that the "all" doesn't mean "all". If it does, then their idea of predestination doesn't hold up.
 
deep said:


In the book

people tell themselfs that

because they have lived a life as believers
and they believe their children are innocent

and "G-d is in control"

so it must be
because, pick one? they had sex before marraige, did not attend Church that Easter, whatever. To make sense of their faith, Believers want G-d to be in controll, I think they even post statements to that effect.
Click to expand...

Do I believe God is in control, ultimately, yes. I also believe in free will. The two can coexist.

Do I believe bad stuff happens to people after they lead a life of sin, of course. Black Rebel Motorcycle Club has the best line on this "I've never known a God that would grind my bones to save my soul." God will allow things to happen or even cause things to happen to draw us to him. If it hurts, but it wakes us up and points us to him, then it's not a "bad thing."

This isn't just a pat answer or something I say to make sense of my faith, it's the character of God revealed to us in the Bible.
 
80sU2isBest said:
An argument I have had with Calvinists and Reformed Theologists is about their idea that "God's will is always done". I don't believe that. I think free will and natural disasters/diseases ensure that. For instance, is it God's will that a child be raped by an evil man? I would say not. That act is committed by someone who has a free will and chose to do an evil thing.

..............................

Of course, Calvinists say that the "all" doesn't mean "all". If it does, then their idea of predestination doesn't hold up.
Click to expand...

Most Calvinists understand the distinction between freedom and freedom of the will. Free will refers only to the will. We don't use the term "will" for that which makes choices.

Anyway, as a Christian, the concept of petitionary prayer was a HUGE struggle for me. It's really the one issue that always kept me on the edge because I never found a way to reconcile prayer with reality. But then I read the most significant piece of theology in my life. Like deep said at the very beginning, if God does answer petitionary prayers and answers them to the extent of OUR will, then how do you explain why some are answered and others aren't? I struggled with that for years and years and the icing on the cake was when my best friend got cancer AGAIN and died a slow, painful, terrible death even thought there were about 1000 people praying for her on a daily basis and she was as pure as the driven snow. But I read a piece on petitionary prayer that cleared up this issue for me. I'm not going to get into it here because I have many times before in other threads, but my question is this: if you're criticising Calvinists for putting faith behind "God's will" rather than human wants and desires, then how do you explain the unanswered prayer of Jesus himself? If Jesus - 100% human but also completely sinless in the eyes of the Lord - can pray and pray and still God is unchanged then how can we expect God to intervene on our behalves?

The problem with the "it is God's will" card is that it's often played wrong. Like I said before, my friend died at age 20. At her funeral I was standing in a circle of friends, trying to comfort her roommate when one of our Deans came by, put her hand on my friend's shoulder and said something to the effect of "God has a reason for everything." Let me tell you, I'm not a fighting person and I don't get angry easily but at that moment I was so enraged that I had to turn and walk away from the situation in order to not hit that woman in the face. To this day I cannot stand the sight of her. It is never God's will for kids to die slow and cruel deaths.



I'm not sure what you're getting at in the second bit there. John Calvin believed in the supreme authority of God, such that if God were to predestine who was saved and who wasn't, then so be it, God is God and He has that power. Whether or not predestination is actually practiced by God is an entirely different issue. You cannot believe in an entirely supreme God if you refuse to accept that he COULD predestine people to various fates, if that were His will (no one's arguing that it is).
 
I believe that there is a scientific explanation for "spontaneous remission," and some day, I hope that we are able to understand it so that it can be medically induced into others.

Of course, as God would be the creator of science, I have no problem giving thanks. I just don't want it to be an excuse for inaction on the part of mankind.

Melon
 
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LivLuvAndBootlegMusic said:

I'm not sure what you're getting at in the second bit there. John Calvin believed in the supreme authority of God, such that if God were to predestine who was saved and who wasn't, then so be it, God is God and He has that power. Whether or not predestination is actually practiced by God is an entirely different issue. You cannot believe in an entirely supreme God if you refuse to accept that he COULD predestine people to various fates, if that were His will (no one's arguing that it is).
Click to expand...

I've never met a Calvinist who didn't believe that God DID predestine, so yes, people are arguing that he did.

As you probably know, Calvinism is based on 5 points, called (3)TULIP. Points 2 through 4 specifically address predestination, and yes, they say that God DOES predestine. In case you forgot points 2 through 4, here they are:

(2) Unconditional Election:
God does not base His election on anything He sees in the individual. He chooses the elect according to the kind intention of His will (Eph. 1:4-8; Rom. 9:11) without any consideration of merit within the individual. Nor does God look into the future to see who would pick Him. Also, as some are elected into salvation, others are not (Rom. 9:15, 21).

(3) Limited Atonement:
Jesus died only for the elect. Though Jesus’ sacrifice was sufficient for all, it was not efficacious for all. Jesus only bore the sins of the elect. Support for this position is drawn from such scriptures as Matt. 26:28 where Jesus died for ‘many'; John 10:11, 15 which say that Jesus died for the sheep (not the goats, per Matt. 25:32-33); John 17:9 where Jesus in prayer interceded for the ones given Him, not those of the entire world; Acts 20:28 and Eph. 5:25-27 which state that the Church was purchased by Christ, not all people; and Isaiah 53:12 which is a prophecy of Jesus’ crucifixion where he would bore the sins of many (not all).

(4)Irresistible Grace:
When God calls his elect into salvation, they cannot resist. God offers to all people the gospel message. This is called the external call. But to the elect, God extends an internal call and it cannot be resisted. This call is by the Holy Spirit who works in the hearts and minds of the elect to bring them to repentance and regeneration whereby they willingly and freely come to God. Some of the verses used in support of this teaching are Romans 9:16 where it says that "it is not of him who wills nor of him who runs, but of God who has mercy"; Philippians 2:12-13 where God is said to be the one working salvation in the individual; John 6:28-29 where faith is declared to be the work of God; Acts 13:48 where God appoints people to believe; and John 1:12-13 where being born again is not by man’s will, but by God’s.


By the way, if "all" means "all", then predestination goes out the window because if God:

(1) Desires that all men be saved

and

(2) Predestines salvation

then wouldn't it follow that

(3) God would predestine all people to salvation?
 
80sU2isBest said:


I've never met a Calvinist who didn't believe that God DID predestine, so yes, people are arguing that he did.

As you probably know, Calvinism is based on 5 points, called (3)TULIP. Points 2 through 4 specifically address predestination, and yes, they say that God DOES predestine. In case you forgot points 2 through 4, here they are:


By the way, if "all" means "all", then predestination goes out the window because if God:

(1) Desires that all men be saved

and

(2) Predestines salvation

then wouldn't it follow that

(3) God would predestine all people to salvation?
Click to expand...

TULIP doctrine was generated by the Canons of Dort after the death of John Calvin. It's more post-Calvin Protestantism than Calvinism. They took almost meaningless passags from Calvin's Institutes (yes, predestination is the BIG one) and twisted his words until they settled on the halfass TULIP. Calvinism is based on the teachings of John Calvin. This is a huge misunderstanding and on-going bone of contention among "Calvinists"/Protestant Christians (mainly Christian Reformed). As a professing member of the Christian Reformed Church of NA, I will accept TULIP and the Canons as the integral theology of the denomination, but I'd never say it is the basis for Calvinism. Jean Cauvin alone is the basis for Calvinism.

Perhaps God does predestine all men to be saved? The point of Calvin's doctrine of predestination is NOT to say who is saved and who isn't.
 
LivLuvAndBootlegMusic said:


TULIP doctrine was generated by the Canons of Dort after the death of John Calvin. It's more post-Calvin Protestantism than Calvinism. They took almost meaningless passags from Calvin's Institutes (yes, predestination is the BIG one) and twisted his words until they settled on the halfass TULIP. Calvinism is based on the teachings of John Calvin. This is a huge misunderstanding and on-going bone of contention among "Calvinists"/Protestant Christians (mainly Christian Reformed). As a professing member of the Christian Reformed Church of NA, I will accept TULIP and the Canons as the integral theology of the denomination, but I'd never say it is the basis for Calvinism. Jean Cauvin alone is the basis for Calvinism.
Click to expand...

You know a lot more about the history of it than I do. The fact remains that I've never met a Calvinist who didn't believe in TULIP 100%, including the idea of predestination.
 
80sU2isBest said:


You know a lot more about the history of it than I do. The fact remains that I've never met a Calvinist who didn't believe in TULIP 100%, including the idea of predestination.
Click to expand...

Well, now you have :D I live in a Calvinist area and went to Calvinist schools (including college) and around here, I'd say it's more like 50/50. Many of the people still holding onto TULIP as "Calvinist" doctrine do so merely because they haven't taken the time to actually study John Calvin. So I guess those people at the Canons win - now many people falsely attribute their own twisted theologies to the great works of John Calvin. I don't like TULIP because it incorrectly defines and prioritizes the finer points of Calvinism. On the surface, those five points are not inconsistent with Calvin, but their definitions and theological interpretations are. Also, just the fact that they overwhelmingly deal with the concept that everyone is depraved and we're doomed because God has already decided who's in and who's out, yadda yadda is very un-Calvinist. Calvin originally wrote about predestination because someone in his church asked a very specific question and in order to develop a complete theology, no loopholes, he had to address the conflict between there being a supreme and all-powerfull, all-knowing God with the idea that people are saved based on their own good works and religious convictions. Predestination does not need to exist; there only needs to be acceptance that it could because if you don't accept that it could then you can't accept that God is all-knowing and all-poweful.
 
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