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Old 08-08-2009, 11:19 PM   #931
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Originally Posted by 2861U2 View Post
But it's conservatives who engage in violence and hate speech, right?
I'm assuming you mean neo-'conservative' here, as in all the posts of yours that I've read on this forum, I've never once seen you argue the genuine conservative case.

In answer to your question, neo-'conservatives' are indeed engaged in violence and hate speech.

Examples of violence include, but are not limited to, massacring hundreds of thousands of civilians in Iraq, and examples of hate speech include, but are not limited to, demonstrably false and fraudulent claims made by neo-'conservatives' regarding the independent democratic country of Iran- presumably on the say so of the puppet meisters, the Christian Zionists/Likudniks.

In my opinion, neo-'conservatism' should be treated as a psychopathic psychiatric disorder, rather than a genuine political movement.
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Old 08-08-2009, 11:32 PM   #932
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Whats deranged is the continued ignorance about the threat Saddam posed to the region and the world, and the silly idea that Saddam was really micky mouse and the region and the world would be safer and better off today with him still in power in Iraq. Saddam will not be on the ballot in Iraq in January 2010, and the number of people who consider that to be a huge benefit to the security and stability of Iraq, the region and the world continues to grow.
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The Iraq war proved to be the Republican Party’s Waterloo. Will the Af-Pak war turn into the Democrats’ Vietnam? The cultists compare Obama to John F. Kennedy, but aside from the glamour factor the resemblance may be closer to Lyndon Johnson, a liberal president with an expansive domestic agenda who let an overseas conflict escalate out of control, in spite of all the efforts of the Best and the Brightest.
‘Culturally Sensitive’ Imperialism by Justin Raimondo -- Antiwar.com
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Old 08-08-2009, 11:35 PM   #933
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It was actually your posts a page or two back that got me thinking about this, because you sounded as incredulous about all this as I feel. I'm not sure that many US citizens realize that a great deal of the democratic world does seem to have a somewhat tempered at times, but ultimately innate trust in their governments that, worst case scenario, they won't completely fuck things up, and best case, that their government really does want to do what's best for its citizens, and make the nation as good and effective as it can be for most people. It's just such a different mindset than many of us are accustomed to.

what government has going for it is two things:

1. you can vote people out of office
2. there's a large, well-organized, and ultimately rather effective press covering the workings of the federal government who go into a feeding frenzy at the slightest whiff of corruption

this simply doesn't exist at the state level, save for a few large states with effective newspapers, and it certainly doesn't exist on the same level when it comes to business. in fact, most of the journalists who cover business -- Forbes, WSJ -- are cheerleaders. sure, you'll get a lone journalist like Bethany McLean who basically broke the Enron scandal, but Wall Street simply isn't policed by the press in the way that Congress is.

is Congress bloated and corrupt and wasteful? absolutely. but i think there's greater accountability there than in business.

but it does amaze me, too. coming from an uppity college where lots of my peers have gone on into business and to Wall Street, there is an irrational distrust of all things "government" that is kind of mind boggling.
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Old 08-08-2009, 11:37 PM   #934
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demonstrably false and fraudulent claims made by neo-'conservatives' regarding the independent democratic country of Iran- presumably on the say so of the puppet meisters, the Christian Zionists/Likudniks.


you're going to defend the Iranian regime?
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Old 08-08-2009, 11:40 PM   #935
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in fact, most of the journalists who cover business -- Forbes, WSJ -- are cheerleaders. sure, you'll get a lone journalist like Bethany McLean who basically broke the Enron scandal, but Wall Street simply isn't policed by the press in the way that Congress is.
I wouldn't necessarily agree with this. Forbes and WSJ are not good examples. Bloomberg is a good unbiased resource. MSNBC has a lot of shills but it also has Gasparino.
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Old 08-08-2009, 11:42 PM   #936
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you're going to defend the Iranian regime?
Spare me the faux outrage. The Iranian government is democratically elected. Who the electorate chose to represent them, is really none of our business. How the elected government regulates life in that country is also none of our business. President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's previous comments regarding Israel were mistranslated, for political reasons.
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Old 08-08-2009, 11:43 PM   #937
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Will these scare tactics and hyperbolic nonsense actually be successful in blocking meaningful reform. I hope not--not because the Democrat's plan is a good one--but simply because the reasons being presented--the partisan crap that has been perpetuated right in this thread--for opposing it are ridiculous!
Has anyone posted the specifics of Obama's plan here? What about the different versions that were in committee in Congress?


The president's problem is not the Republicans. It's moderate Democrats stalling the bill.
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Old 08-08-2009, 11:44 PM   #938
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I wouldn't necessarily agree with this. Forbes and WSJ are not good examples. Bloomberg is a good unbiased resource. MSNBC has a lot of shills but it also has Gasparino.


yes, there is some tough business reporting, but i think it pales in comparison to the scale and scope of tough political reporting that's available.

one could argue that the political reporting still isn't adequate, and i might be inclined to agree, but i think it's light years beyond the business reporting available.
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Old 08-08-2009, 11:51 PM   #939
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In a simliar vein as your posted article, financeguy, here's an excellent, excellent piece of reporting and opinion on the current "debate" over health care:

YouTube - Rachel Maddow: "Mob Rule" - It's Not About Health Care
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Old 08-08-2009, 11:53 PM   #940
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Has anyone posted the specifics of Obama's plan here? What about the different versions that were in committee in Congress?


The president's problem is not the Republicans. It's moderate Democrats stalling the bill.



while i agree, it seems that the issues in the news the past 48 hours and the discussion now in here has been the so-called "protests" at these town hall meetings and the increased coverage of know-nothing Palinism in many of these protesters, i.e., "don't let the government take away my Medicaid."

agreed on Obama's relatively poor salesmanship so far. though i think that's about to change.

it seems to me that Obama wants to provide a government option for those who are uninsured and underinsured. (i was once underinsured, btw, and thankfully i had insurance when i had my own severe accident). it seems like doing this will cost $1T over 10 years. it's expensive. but it doesn't seem too much more expensive than, say, the Bush prescription entitlement passed by the GOP just a few years ago. and the $1T over 10 years might wind up saving more money by bringing down, for example, visits to the emergency room that are often made by the underinsured and the uninsured. it also seems that the long-term cost forecast for health care is that prices are going to continue to skyrocket, which is going to be a huge drag on the international competitiveness of US companies who have to provide increasingly expensive health care coverage compared to countries where people work for $.75 an hour and no bathroom breaks and the government takes care of health care. it seems like Obama wants the government to shoulder more of the burden of health care in order to help out the business sector. is that so awful?

the question, of course, is how to pay for it.

and now Obama has to kill the rabid, racist fear that's driving the Palin People. thank goodness he's about the most preternaturally gifted communicator in my (relatively young) lifetime. but that might not be enough. we'll see.

and that's my pretty elementary take on it. i've been in a deep dark hole for the past month or so. but that's what i've been able to glean from the news so far.
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Old 08-08-2009, 11:54 PM   #941
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Spare me the faux outrage. The Iranian government is democratically elected.


oh come on now.

you can't hate Israel this much, can you?
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Old 08-09-2009, 12:02 AM   #942
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oh come on now.

you can't hate Israel this much, can you?
By that standard, Nelson Mandela and the entire anti-apartheid movement must have been motivated by hatred for South Africa.

I'm in favour of countries which face proximate threats from a close neighbour with a record of following through being allowed to arm themselves, if that's what you're asking.
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Old 08-09-2009, 12:04 AM   #943
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By that standard, Nelson Mandela and the entire anti-apartheid movement must have been motivated by hatred for South Africa.

I'm in favour of countries which face proximate threats from a close neighbour with a record of following through being allowed to arm themselves, if that's what you're asking.

do you think that the past election was legitimate? that Ahmadinejad won with a resounding 60% of the vote?

do you think Iranians want nuclear weapons?
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Old 08-09-2009, 12:09 AM   #944
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do you think that the past election was legitimate? that Ahmadinejad won with a resounding 60% of the vote?
I have absolutely no idea. As I said, I don't view it as any of my business. The question doesn't interest me in the slightest.


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do you think Iranians want nuclear weapons?
Absolutely and completely. I certainly would, in their position. I'd want my government to provide protection from a threatening and militaristic neighbour, with a known record of starting aggression.

Let's get real here. If there's ever a nuclear war in the Middle East, and I hope there won't be, it won't be Iran than starts it.
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Old 08-09-2009, 12:18 AM   #945
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Originally Posted by VintagePunk View Post
It was actually your posts a page or two back that got me thinking about this, because you sounded as incredulous about all this as I feel. I'm not sure that many US citizens realize that a great deal of the democratic world does seem to have a somewhat tempered at times, but ultimately innate trust in their governments that, worst case scenario, they won't completely fuck things up, and best case, that their government really does want to do what's best for its citizens, and make the nation as good and effective as it can be for most people. It's just such a different mindset than many of us are accustomed to.
exactly. i was going to make a post before i stopped last night saying there was no point me carrying on in the discussion because of the complete ideological differences involved in the debate.

i put it to those in america, who disagree or agree with my opinion - if the point of government isn't to do the best for the people it supposedly governs, precisely what the fuck is the point of even having one?
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