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Old 08-08-2009, 02:53 PM   #916
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You know, I used to hate "stupid" people, but now, it's ignorance that boils my blood. Some people are just dealt a losing hand in the intelligence department, but maybe they work their ass off, maybe they stay current etc....but people that willfully ignore the issues, vote without educating themselves, argue with people when they are devoid of the correct information and yell from the rooftops about pure nonsense, well, that's just maddening to me.

And, I'm not overly bright myself so if I sound a tad high and mighty, I apologize....I just struggle with people that more or less flaunt their ignorance.
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Old 08-08-2009, 02:55 PM   #917
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I just struggle with people that more or less flaunt their ignorance.
yes!

"look at me, im a fucking idiot! hehehehe"

people laugh about their igorance, like it's cute that they cant correctly fill out a basic form with a couple of questions.....
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Old 08-08-2009, 03:35 PM   #918
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If you listen to Glenn Beck's twisting of the the truth, then yes it's closer to like 5 people who are uninsured.
CNN said it was actually close to 8 million but I was in the pub at the time, didn't catch all of it. The 45 million includes anyone during the year who had a temporary lapse in coverage, illegal immigrants, and those that could afford insurance but chose not to buy into it. (the latter included me)
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Old 08-08-2009, 04:27 PM   #919
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What are the real numbers?

From my understanding, the uninsured isn't even the full problem, it's also the under-insured, the people who are paying exorbitant rates for their insurance or procedures/treatments that aren't covered, and those who have to jump through hoops (not always successfully) to get their insurance companies to cover legitimate health care needs.
This is true, the under-insured are a big portion of our health care problems.

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CNN said it was actually close to 8 million but I was in the pub at the time, didn't catch all of it. The 45 million includes anyone during the year who had a temporary lapse in coverage, illegal immigrants, and those that could afford insurance but chose not to buy into it. (the latter included me)
I would say when all is said and done it's probably closer to 25-30 million, that's not including illegal immigrants. But all those undocumented workers who are working the jobs that not even the unemployed want to work need care every once in awhile so they are part of this issue. "Temporary" lapse is only counted if it's at least a year(from my understanding) and a lot can happen in a year. And the whole "could afford but chose not to buy" is bullshit, how do you judge that number? A 55 year old might be able to technically "afford" some coverage but not for the issues he/she may have to really deal with...

There are far too many factors to just look at a number, and both sides are padding, but the right is definately "padding" their's a lot worse...
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Old 08-08-2009, 05:09 PM   #920
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And the whole "could afford but chose not to buy" is bullshit, how do you judge that number? .

I dunno, a number of younger employees surveyed said they choose that option. When I was among them there were at least 5 other people doing the same thing at my company alone.
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Old 08-08-2009, 05:18 PM   #921
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I dunno, a number of younger employees surveyed said they choose that option. When I was among them there were at least 5 other people doing the same thing at my company alone.
Oh, I understand the "logic", if you're young you don't think you need it, it's a waste of money... until something happens.

When I was 22 and a college student my parents switched me from their insurance to a student insurance between the switch there were three days that I wouldn't be covered, that three days coincided with a ski trip where I fractured two vertebrae... never been injured before in my life.
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Old 08-08-2009, 05:43 PM   #922
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Republicans dont believe in "small government" - they just say they do. Their actions show something quite different. I also do not think that democrats believe in "Big Government"

My view, and I am a liberal, is that government should only be involved in areas that cannot be left to the private sector- to me those areas are:

Education, Environmental protections, and Health Care. Almost everything else should be left to the free market. And there should be NO government involved in people's personal choices (i.e. gay marriage, abortion, etc...)

If you ask me conservative's believe in bigger government and LESS freedom- for instance look at it this way:

Conservative's believe in Gov interference (hehe i said "interference" ) in people's personal lives and choices to uphold this so-called leave it to beaver type "family values." Yet they believe in minimal regulation in the Free market while they funnel money into big business and corporations leaving the middle class out to dry and justifying it by saying that "the freer the market- the freer the people"

The truth is that yes, a free market is important to freedom... but at the same time, when has being a health care slave to insurance companies been considered freedom? When has not being able to start a small business because of large tax cuts and unfair advantages going to corporations been considered "freedom?" When has an education system that is crumbling with less government funding or involvement been considered freedom? When has not being able to marry the person you love been considered freedom?

Government and freedom can coincide. Freedom is not the opposite of Government. And smart, effective, and efficient government based around the people to SERVE the people can mean more progress. Conservatives just try to hold all this back to serve the few rich corporations who they defend instead of the majority of americans, and then justify it by calling it "less government"

just my $0.02
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Old 08-08-2009, 05:50 PM   #923
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yes!

"look at me, im a fucking idiot! hehehehe"

people laugh about their igorance, like it's cute that they cant correctly fill out a basic form with a couple of questions.....
Ya, they are proud of it. It's the Sarah Palin crowd. Sorry but it's true. Come on, the woman thought Africa was a country for crying out loud, and she has followers that want her elected because she is "relatable".

Most of the right has learned, with the exception of maybe Megan McCain, from Fox and Rush and Bill O, and Hannity,
that being smart is "elitist" and somehow unamerican. That we from the blue states don't believe in God and if we do we are not the right kind of Christian or whatever, and that we can't be trusted becasue we are educated yankees. What a steaming pile of crap. It's the same pile of poop that was waiting for Obama when he moved to the WH. and now he is getting blamed for the stench that is still lingering in the air. It's incredibly frustrating.
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Old 08-08-2009, 05:52 PM   #924
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Originally Posted by zooropop40 View Post
Republicans dont believe in "small government" - they just say they do. Their actions show something quite different. I also do not think that democrats believe in "Big Government"

My view, and I am a liberal, is that government should only be involved in areas that cannot be left to the private sector- to me those areas are:

Education, Environmental protections, and Health Care. Almost everything else should be left to the free market. And there should be NO government involved in people's personal choices (i.e. gay marriage, abortion, etc...)

If you ask me conservative's believe in bigger government and LESS freedom- for instance look at it this way:

Conservative's believe in Gov interference (hehe i said "interference" ) in people's personal lives and choices to uphold this so-called leave it to beaver type "family values." Yet they believe in minimal regulation in the Free market while they funnel money into big business and corporations leaving the middle class out to dry and justifying it by saying that "the freer the market- the freer the people"

The truth is that yes, a free market is important to freedom... but at the same time, when has being a health care slave to insurance companies been considered freedom? When has not being able to start a small business because of large tax cuts and unfair advantages going to corporations been considered "freedom?" When has an education system that is crumbling with less government funding or involvement been considered freedom? When has not being able to marry the person you love been considered freedom?

Government and freedom can coincide. Freedom is not the opposite of Government. And smart, effective, and efficient government based around the people to SERVE the people can mean more progress. Conservatives just try to hold all this back to serve the few rich corporations who they defend instead of the majority of americans, and then justify it by calling it "less government"

just my $0.02
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Old 08-08-2009, 07:17 PM   #925
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My daughter and I were discussing the US health care issue last night, along with this thread specifically, and noted that (just an observation, no judgment) in general, many US citizens seem much more paranoid about steps their government take than do citizens of any other democracy we could think of. In Canada, even when citizens are ideologically opposed to the party in power, although we might not agree with their policies or like every decision they come to, there's not this pervasive feeling that the government is out to get us/do us harm/invade our privacy. We talked about how the US was pretty much founded on anti-government sentiment, and how it's carried over to present day.

I just find it amazing that people would be willing to put their trust in a private, for profit company to have their best interests in mind, before the government. Besides that, I guess I really don't have a point, but I'd be interested in reading any comments that this might generate.
i'm trying to come up with a paragraph or even just a sentence that adds my thoughts to this, but i'd simply be echoing your post entirely.
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Old 08-08-2009, 08:16 PM   #926
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What is the saddest thing is that the Right (and that includes INDY and 2861 right here) seem to have no intention of even providing a reasonable alternative to Obama's plan. That's sad, because I have a lot of reservatons about the current plan, but the Right has simply dropped the ball on providing any alternative beyond "everything's fine the way it is."

You guys have completely abdicated your responsiblity as citizens of this country to get involved in this process in a reasonable and informed way.

Will these scare tactics and hyperbolic nonsense actually be successful in blocking meaningful reform. I hope not--not because the Democrat's plan is a good one--but simply because the reasons being presented--the partisan crap that has been perpetuated right in this thread--for opposing it are ridiculous!
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Old 08-08-2009, 08:28 PM   #927
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i'm trying to come up with a paragraph or even just a sentence that adds my thoughts to this, but i'd simply be echoing your post entirely.
It was actually your posts a page or two back that got me thinking about this, because you sounded as incredulous about all this as I feel. I'm not sure that many US citizens realize that a great deal of the democratic world does seem to have a somewhat tempered at times, but ultimately innate trust in their governments that, worst case scenario, they won't completely fuck things up, and best case, that their government really does want to do what's best for its citizens, and make the nation as good and effective as it can be for most people. It's just such a different mindset than many of us are accustomed to.
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Old 08-08-2009, 09:24 PM   #928
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But how many politicians with the means and desire to rise to the top of the political heap here in the States demonstrate a desire to truly do what's best for the citizens of the US as opposed to what's best for them or more importantly their party? I mean, did you trust the government of this country prior to 1/20/09? I sure as fuck didn't.

I don't trust/have faith in the people doing the voting, let alone those they vote for.

I wish I did.
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Old 08-08-2009, 09:45 PM   #929
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What is the saddest thing is that the Right (and that includes INDY and 2861 right here) seem to have no intention of even providing a reasonable alternative to Obama's plan. That's sad, because I have a lot of reservatons about the current plan, but the Right has simply dropped the ball on providing any alternative beyond "everything's fine the way it is."

You guys have completely abdicated your responsiblity as citizens of this country to get involved in this process in a reasonable and informed way.

Will these scare tactics and hyperbolic nonsense actually be successful in blocking meaningful reform. I hope not--not because the Democrat's plan is a good one--but simply because the reasons being presented--the partisan crap that has been perpetuated right in this thread--for opposing it are ridiculous!

Well this is exactly what I was saying during the whole tea party debacle. They're protesting, shouting, etc but 3/4 of them have no clue why they are there and 100% of them never offered an alternative.

You notice no one actually argue's that our current system is great, because they would be laughed at... It's nothing but partisan bullshit, is what it comes down to.
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Old 08-08-2009, 11:11 PM   #930
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Violence At Townhall - Against A Conservative; Six Arrested, Including a Reporter | NewsBusters.org

We have some video of the attack. It appears that it is members of the Service Employees International Union (SEIU) doing at least some of the dirty work.

But it's conservatives who engage in violence and hate speech, right?

The Saint Louis Post-Dispatch is reporting that one of their own, reporter Jake Wagman, was one of six people arrested in connection with the beating of a conservative activist outside of a town hall forum held by Democrat Congressman Russ Carnahan.

According to Dawn Majors, a Post-Dispatch photojournalist who witnessed everything unfold, an officer said that Wagman had been "interfering."

From the article:

Kenneth Gladney, a 38-year-old conservative activist from St. Louis, said he was attacked by some of those arrested as he handed out yellow flags with “Don't tread on me” printed on them. He spoke to the Post-Dispatch from the emergency room of the St. John's Mercy Medical Center, where he said he was waiting to be treated for injuries to his knee, back, elbow, shoulder and face that he suffered in the attack. Gladney, who is black, said one of his attackers, also a black man, used a racial slur against him before the attack started.

"It just seems there's no freedom of speech without being attacked," he said.

That is some list of injuries, which means it must have been some beating. And Gladney says he was attacked by "some of those arrested," which means there were probably more in the mob than just that.

And let us not overlook nor forget the racial slur Gladney additionally endured.

Two of those were arrested on suspicion of assault, one of resisting arrest and three on suspicion of committing peace disturbances.

To be very fair, Wagman of the Post-Dispatch could have simply been in the way while trying to shoot video of the assault; the article does not say.

We'll see how widely this is reported by the Lamestream Media, as it certainly fails to fit into their Conservative Haters template.


------------

I can't wait to hear what Olbermann and the Daily Kos say about this!

So comparing these protesters to Nazis, Brownshirts, political terrorists and Timothy McVeigh wasn't enough? They have to start physically attacking them now? Is it November 2010 yet?

Quote:
Glenn Beck jokes about putting poison in Nancy Pelosi's wine
Saturday, August 08, 2009





-- by Dave

Glenn Beck had a glass of wine with Nancy Pelosi on Thursday night.

Of course, it wasn't actually Pelosi. It was some poor Fox employee made to sit across the desk from Beck with a cardboard Pelosi mask, holding a glass of juice of some kind that was serving as a stand-in for wine.

It was all meant to spoof Pelosi for supposedly listening only to "millionaire contributors" instead of her constituents.

But then he tossed in a little "joke":


Beck: I just want you to drink it. Drink it. [Laughs] Drink it! I really just wanted to thank you for having us over here to wine country. You know, to be invited, I thought you had to be a major Democratic donor or longtime friend of yours, which I'm not. Oh, ah, by the way, I put poison in your -- no I --


Funny, it seems like only a couple of days ago Beck was imploring his viewers not to resort to acts of violence. (It was.) And now he's encouraging violence by joking about poisoning the Speaker of the House.

Cross-posted at Crooks and Liars.

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Are Republicans and their thugs killing off the Town Hall as a democratic forum?






-- by Dave

Does anyone remember when Town Hall forums were civil affairs that gave citizens a chance to speak freely to their elected representatives in a civil conversation?

Yeah, that would have been last week. In the days since, Republicans and their astroturf gangs of protesters have transformed town halls into outlets for their prearranged shoutfests ginned up by Fox talkers.

The old town-hall forum may never be the same. And the country is the worse for it.

Check out the ugliness yesterday in Tampa Bay. It certainly fits the blueprint for action laid out early on in this effort: Disrupt, distract, and destroy any chance for an actual civil and informed conversation. In other words, demolish the entire purpose of a town-hall forum.

As Paul Krugman puts it:


Some commentators have tried to play down the mob aspect of these scenes, likening the campaign against health reform to the campaign against Social Security privatization back in 2005. But there’s no comparison. I’ve gone through many news reports from 2005, and while anti-privatization activists were sometimes raucous and rude, I can’t find any examples of congressmen shouted down, congressmen hanged in effigy, congressmen surrounded and followed by taunting crowds.

And I can’t find any counterpart to the death threats at least one congressman has received.

... [T]he driving force behind the town hall mobs is probably the same cultural and racial anxiety that’s behind the “birther” movement, which denies Mr. Obama’s citizenship. Senator Dick Durbin has suggested that the birthers and the health care protesters are one and the same; we don’t know how many of the protesters are birthers, but it wouldn’t be surprising if it’s a substantial fraction.

And cynical political operators are exploiting that anxiety to further the economic interests of their backers.


No one has a problem with right-wingers marching in protest of the health-care plans. That's certainly their right. And no one minds that they choose to participate in these forums. But town halls were never designed to be vehicles for protest. They have always been about enabling real democratic discourse in a civil setting.

When someone's entire purpose in coming out to a town-hall forum is to chant and shout and protest and disrupt, they aren't just expressing their opinions -- they are actively shutting down democracy.

And that, folks, is a classically fascist thing to do.
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