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Old 03-03-2009, 09:04 AM   #46
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I have a very good life right now, it's my honour and I believe my duty to carry more weight than those who don't. Period.
Sad to say but I think in 2009 you are a very unusual person-in such a good way. Probably due to your life experiences and upbringing. I applaud that. It's such a 180 from the "I have mine and f everyone else and I want more and more and more and those who don't are just lazy and stupid" attitude of so many people.

My parents never made close to six figures combined and I never have and never will. Still they made "too much" for me to qualify for financial aid for college, luckily for me college was much cheaper when I went. Personally I wouldn't feel right complaining about taxes if I was lucky enough to make six figures. Especially with what's going on in the world today.
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Old 03-03-2009, 10:03 AM   #47
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AliEnvy -- Much of my time in Iraq was donated, without pay, in fact the entire last month I was there.
Thanks for clarifying. There are many ways that prosperous people can contribute to their communities besides paying higher taxes, volunteering being one of them.
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Old 03-03-2009, 11:50 AM   #48
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Irvine,

Agree with everything you say... and I am comfortable with giving more...

But your quote below...really sets off the conservative in me. In fact, what you say above, is I guess, exactly why I am conservative. I come from very humble beginnings. We never had a house, and my parents worked very hard for every penny they had. We grew our own food, hunted, and lived very frugally. They were essentially share croppers during one shift, and laborers another. Even with that lifestyle, we still didn't get any grants or subsidies for my bi-directional state school, only loans.

It's hard for me to describe, but it was the driving force behind me working so hard early in my career. All I really had was some ingenuity and a massive drive to my name. And that is why I feel uncomfortable sometimes, giving it back in the form of taxes.



i do hear you on this.

i work my ass off. i make a more than adequate salary. i am in a career that's fairly different than the one i had in mind when i was in college. after 2 years of wandering around Europe i came back home, took an unpaid internship, worked several jobs, and managed through luck and circumstance to get a job in my chosen field. since then, and because i'm a freelancer, i have to fight for every job i've gotten. and, as i said, i work hard. i buy my own health insurance. and we won't even dive into the disadvantage i'm at being unable to attain some of the securities that come with marriage.

however, i think i'd be remiss if i didn't sit back and acknowledge the role that luck played in my being where i am today. i had parents who nurtured self-belief, self-reliance, and risk-taking. i had schools and teachers and coaches who all were invested, to some degree or another, in my success.

what i'm trying to say is that it truly does take a village. and that some of what we credit as being unique to our personality -- gumption, elbow grease, initiative -- are traits that are as much a product of our unchosen environments as anything else.

and i see that many people have responded to you much along the same lines, so i'll stop here, but i did want to respond to you since you addressed me directly.

i'll also add that you come from a very similar background to Memphis. his grandparents really were sharecroppers. his mother grew up with a dirt floor. weeks would go by when the only way for his family to be able to eat was for his mother to get credit from the local grocer. he's the only male in his family with a college degree. and this is a family where he has 60+ first cousins.

i think that being gay saved him from repeating the cycle that so many of his family members get caught up in where you get someone pregnant at 17, 18 or 19, and then you get a job to pay the bills. and then you divorce about 10 years later. and so on and so forth.

he was lucky because i think he had a sense of being quite different from his family members. this was likely alienating, but that amount of self-reflection was probably where his desire for something more and different probably grew.

he was also lucky because he wasn't going to be getting anyone pregnant in high school, despite the fact that he had several opportunities.

so, long story short, there's just so much beyond our control. and as i watched a near-fight on the metro this morning, and watched a young woman try to start a fight with an equally young man and i saw the total lack of impulse control and the need to come off as tough and how she was going to "shoot him in the fucking face and bury him beneath this fucking train, you white fucking faggot." part of me knows that some of that language is street survival language, and that lack of impulse control -- which, imho, is critical to being able to function as a successful human being -- is something that was likely never rewarded or reinforced.

i'm reading in a whole lot, and i'm rambling. but this is more interesting than my work right now.
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Old 03-03-2009, 12:55 PM   #49
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Brilliant post Irvine -- I'm at work now, will respond later.
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Old 03-03-2009, 01:50 PM   #50
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How about that stock market?

trillions lost since he took office.

Go Senator O

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Old 03-03-2009, 01:54 PM   #51
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Irvine such a closet conservative.
Parents teaching him good values, works hard, believes in self reliance..

*yawn*

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Old 03-03-2009, 02:19 PM   #52
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Old 03-03-2009, 03:01 PM   #53
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Irvine such a closet conservative.
Parents teaching him good values, works hard, believes in self reliance..

*yawn*
Now that's funny!
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Old 03-03-2009, 03:19 PM   #54
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Irvine such a closet conservative.
Parents teaching him good values, works hard, believes in self reliance..

*yawn*

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these are progressive values, sweet pea.
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Old 03-03-2009, 03:37 PM   #55
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Truth be told they're pretty much everyone's values, though unfortunately many parents, conservative and progressive alike, do a poor job of role modeling them.
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Old 03-03-2009, 04:47 PM   #56
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How about that stock market?

trillions lost since he took office.

Go Senator O
And that's his fault how, exactly? The lack of financial confidence has a way of feeding on itself, does it not? Show me some direct links to President Obama-he's not Senator.

What about what President Obama inherited from W? And what exactly was the "mess" that W inherited?
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Old 03-03-2009, 05:41 PM   #57
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And that's his fault how, exactly??
From WSJ-

Quote:
The Obama Economy


As the Dow keeps dropping, the President is running out of people to blame.


As 2009 opened, three weeks before Barack Obama took office, the Dow Jones Industrial Average closed at 9034 on January 2, its highest level since the autumn panic. Yesterday the Dow fell another 4.24% to 6763, for an overall decline of 25% in two months and to its lowest level since 1997. The dismaying message here is that President Obama's policies have become part of the economy's problem.

Americans have welcomed the Obama era in the same spirit of hope the President campaigned on. But after five weeks in office, it's become clear that Mr. Obama's policies are slowing, if not stopping, what would otherwise be the normal process of economic recovery. From punishing business to squandering scarce national public resources, Team Obama is creating more uncertainty and less confidence -- and thus a longer period of recession or subpar growth.

The Democrats who now run Washington don't want to hear this, because they benefit from blaming all bad economic news on President Bush. And Mr. Obama has inherited an unusual recession deepened by credit problems, both of which will take time to climb out of. But it's also true that the economy has fallen far enough, and long enough, that much of the excess that led to recession is being worked off. Already 15 months old, the current recession will soon match the average length -- and average job loss -- of the last three postwar downturns. What goes down will come up -- unless destructive policies interfere with the sources of potential recovery.

And those sources have been forming for some time. The price of oil and other commodities have fallen by two-thirds since their 2008 summer peak, which has the effect of a major tax cut. The world is awash in liquidity, thanks to monetary ease by the Federal Reserve and other central banks. Monetary policy operates with a lag, but last year's easing will eventually stir economic activity.

Housing prices have fallen 27% from their Case-Shiller peak, or some two-thirds of the way back to their historical trend. While still high, credit spreads are far from their peaks during the panic, and corporate borrowers are again able to tap the credit markets. As equities were signaling with their late 2008 rally and January top, growth should under normal circumstances begin to appear in the second half of this year.

So what has happened in the last two months? The economy has received no great new outside shock. Exchange rates and other prices have been stable, and there are no security crises of note. The reality of a sharp recession has been known and built into stock prices since last year's fourth quarter.

What is new is the unveiling of Mr. Obama's agenda and his approach to governance. Every new President has a finite stock of capital -- financial and political -- to deploy, and amid recession Mr. Obama has more than most. But one negative revelation has been the way he has chosen to spend his scarce resources on income transfers rather than growth promotion. Most of his "stimulus" spending was devoted to social programs, rather than public works, and nearly all of the tax cuts were devoted to income maintenance rather than to improving incentives to work or invest.

His Treasury has been making a similar mistake with its financial bailout plans. The banking system needs to work through its losses, and one necessary use of public capital is to assist in burning down those bad assets as fast as possible. Yet most of Team Obama's ministrations so far have gone toward triage and life support, rather than repair and recovery.

AIG yesterday received its fourth "rescue," including $70 billion in Troubled Asset Relief Program cash, without any clear business direction. (See here.) Citigroup's restructuring last week added not a dollar of new capital, and also no clear direction. Perhaps the imminent Treasury "stress tests" will clear the decks, but until they do the banks are all living in fear of becoming the next AIG. All of this squanders public money that could better go toward burning down bank debt.

The market has notably plunged since Mr. Obama introduced his budget last week, and that should be no surprise. The document was a declaration of hostility toward capitalists across the economy. Health-care stocks have dived on fears of new government mandates and price controls. Private lenders to students have been told they're no longer wanted. Anyone who uses carbon energy has been warned to expect a huge tax increase from cap and trade. And every risk-taker and investor now knows that another tax increase will slam the economy in 2011, unless Mr. Obama lets Speaker Nancy Pelosi impose one even earlier.



Meanwhile, Congress demands more bank lending even as it assails lenders and threatens to let judges rewrite mortgage contracts. The powers in Congress -- unrebuked by Mr. Obama -- are ridiculing and punishing the very capitalists who are essential to a sustainable recovery. The result has been a capital strike, and the return of the fear from last year that we could face a far deeper downturn. This is no way to nurture a wounded economy back to health.

Listening to Mr. Obama and his chief of staff, Rahm Emanuel, on the weekend, we couldn't help but wonder if they appreciate any of this. They seem preoccupied with going to the barricades against Republicans who wield little power, or picking a fight with Rush Limbaugh, as if this is the kind of economic leadership Americans want.

Perhaps they're reading the polls and figure they have two or three years before voters stop blaming Republicans and Mr. Bush for the economy. Even if that's right in the long run, in the meantime their assault on business and investors is delaying a recovery and ensuring that the expansion will be weaker than it should be when it finally does arrive.


Most financial prognosticators and astute investors think he has promised things that the USA have no means pay for, notwithstandig the fact that we haven't even experienced another national crisis like 9-11, earthquakes or Katrina. Add those into the equation and 6000 now becomes the new 8000.

Go Barrack.!

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Old 03-03-2009, 05:48 PM   #58
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It's not his fault, yet.

But investors are concerned about his stimulus bill, his new budget, his taxes on capital, and his unconvincing treasury secretary.
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Old 03-03-2009, 05:48 PM   #59
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Was that another e-mail? Where's it from?
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Old 03-03-2009, 05:49 PM   #60
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It's not his fault, yet.

But investors are concerned about his stimulus bill, his new budget, his taxes on capital, and his unconvincing treasury secretary.
Wake me up when we hit 4000.00

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