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Old 03-05-2009, 06:46 PM   #151
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I am also very suspicious of the auto industry bail outs. In a way, the market has spoken, and it's declared that it doesn't want American cars. Now this may be a hard thing on the American psyche, but it just may be where we are at. Continuous bail outs of the industry are like slapping band aids on a gushing wound.

The issue there is how many other ancillary industries would be pulled down along with the auto industry (parts, glass, fabric, plastic manufacturers, etc), and whether we are at a point where such massive-scale industrial failures could be tolerated.
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Old 03-05-2009, 06:50 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by diamond View Post
when cell phones became popular, att had to lay off ppl.

change will always be w us.

therefore let change happen instead of throwing money away.

<>
Wow, that's so comprable to today's situation.

One company dealing with hardships vs several major industries on the brink at the same time.

That's like comparing a slow streaming video to a full network crash.
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Old 03-05-2009, 06:51 PM   #153
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I actually do, it's just you have to listen the blowhards sometime to know what where others are coming from...

But it's becoming blantantly obvious to me that those that are just saying it will heal, don't really know how.

You never once answered my question. Some cute videos and some interesting articles but they didn't answer my question either...
How did we get out of the Great Depression?

But at least I was able to disprove your assumption that millions of jobs would be lost.
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Old 03-05-2009, 07:02 PM   #154
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How did we get out of the Great Depression?
You think it was solely the market correcting itself? Really?


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But at least I was able to disprove your assumption that millions of jobs would be lost.
Um, no. No you didn't some editorials won't ever PROVE or DISPROVE anything. I can show you economists with just the exact opposite view.
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Old 03-05-2009, 07:12 PM   #155
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You think it was solely the market correcting itself? Really?



Um, no. No you didn't some editorials won't ever PROVE or DISPROVE anything. I can show you economists with just the exact opposite view.
Then please do, instead of offering snarky replies.
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Old 03-05-2009, 07:16 PM   #156
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Economist's View: "Transforming the Auto Industry"
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Old 03-05-2009, 07:17 PM   #157
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I have no clue what was "snarky" about that reply...
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Old 03-05-2009, 08:12 PM   #158
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I am also very suspicious of the auto industry bail outs. In a way, the market has spoken, and it's declared that it doesn't want American cars.

Toyota sales are down 40%,

Japan Stocks Fall on Car Sales, Financial Concern; Toyota Drops
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Old 03-05-2009, 08:13 PM   #159
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Sure and Honda sales are down too, but that's a function of the general economic situation rather than decades-long trends.
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Old 03-05-2009, 08:22 PM   #160
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I am not defending American cars,
but this current situation is more about the fact that people just are not buying cars and most other consumer goods than it is about the quality of the products.
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Old 03-05-2009, 08:55 PM   #161
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Thanks for contributing something.

First, it says that the collapse of the Big Three would exacerbate the economic crisis. Perhaps, but it fails to be specific. The articles that I've provided suggest otherwise, stating that, if one or more companies fail, competitors' markets would increase as they would fight to acquisition old factories and workers.

Second, the Big Three would not be in need of money if they had been better managed with better cost structures like other car companies. The Big Three spend more money on workers than purchasing quality materials, and produce cars that Americans don't want. And looking at their profit history, it looks like they would've eventually stumbled into this quagmire, recession or no recession.

The article says we share some of the responsibility for the "misguided SUV era, with its flagrant neglect of energy security, climate risks and unsustainable household borrowing."

Um. What?

And hybrids are retarded. The government has to bribe people into buying one by offering a tax credit. And a lot of current small cars achieve great mileages. And R&D subsidy? Really? Not only are they unconstitutional, but if something was so great, we wouldn't have to subsidize for it.

But most of all, from a Constitutional standpoint, bailing out companies is not a responsibility of the government. It's incredibly unfair to force taxpayers to help these companies who've produce shitty products that no one really wants.

Instead of begging for taxpayer money, they should file for bankruptcy. Bankruptcy isn't the end. Plenty of companies all file for bankruptcy, where they're reorganized into more sustainable businesses.
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Old 03-06-2009, 01:13 AM   #162
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And hybrids are retarded. The government has to bribe people into buying one by offering a tax credit.
That's not entirely fair. SUV sales were driven substantially through the fact that you could use them as a business tax writeoff. The nominal impetus was to "help farmers," but I know of any number of self-employed people who bought an SUV precisely for a tax writeoff who had nothing to do with farming whatsoever. So you could just as easily say that SUV sales were artificially driven by government interference, thus spurring on the Big Three to continue manufacturing these behemoths to their detriment.

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And a lot of current small cars achieve great mileages. And R&D subsidy? Really? Not only are they unconstitutional, but if something was so great, we wouldn't have to subsidize for it.
I've been driving a fuel efficient small car since before hybrids were even dreamt up, so I do relate to point #1 here. Nonetheless, I do think the whole "unconstitutional" line is thrown about recklessly; even a conservative Supreme Court seems to allow quite a bit.
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Old 03-06-2009, 02:43 PM   #163
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I agree. Let the bubble pop and the market will correct itself. The market is inherently self-correcting. FDR's spending did nothing for the economy except prolong it by seven years. It was monetary demand that lifted us out of the Great Depression, not government intervention.

And it was government intervention that started this mess to begin with, forcing financial and lending institutions to take on risk they otherwise would not have.
The high savings rate during the war gave people lots of capital to invest after the war was over. Capital investment is needed to create more goods and services to keep the prices low enough so people will have the money to spend.

This post I made before is key into understanding WWII and just after:

The Ultimate Stimulus Pro and Con thread

Paul Krugman can go fish!
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Old 03-06-2009, 04:55 PM   #164
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The high savings rate during the war gave people lots of capital to invest after the war was over. Capital investment is needed to create more goods and services to keep the prices low enough so people will have the money to spend.
Where's the capital investment going to come from this time around? American consumers are 14 trillion dollars in debt.
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Old 03-06-2009, 05:28 PM   #165
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We could sell arms like in the 80's. Worked wonders.
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