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Old 03-05-2009, 02:21 PM   #136
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If the government did such a good job, this discussion would not exist. Government does a horrible job of "helping" people. War on drugs, war on terror, war on porn, welfare, food stamps, public schools, public housing, etc.

Look at what HUD did to black communities.

Or look at what the Bureau of Indian Affairs have done. They've been issuing hand-outs for 100 years, and Indians are the poorest people in this country, with one of the lowest life expectancy in the world, with 80% unemployment.

And, as one of our founding fathers said, "I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents."

Not only is using taxpayer money on "objects of benevolence" wrong, but there's zero efficacy.

And during his SOTU address, Obama spoke nothing about governmental accountability. Instead, he reduced accountability to a punch line with, "Nobody messes with Joe."

But the biggest problem with Obama and his supporters is that they believe that our problems can be solved by government intervention, and I believe I've done a pretty good job of demonstrating that they don't, and private markets do: look at what Homeland Security has done for Katrina victims versus Habitat for Humanity.
Like I said previously, I agree that the system as it is now is not working, but that doesn't mean just stop and pull out.

There's a lot the private sector can't do nor do they want to do. Plus at times like this it's obvious the private sector can't do everything for they are drying up and backing out of poor communities right now. Especially education.

You show some examples but every single one of those examples upon deeper investigation would show there are several factors playing in these failures.

I think the biggest problem with Obama detractors and their followers is they actually believe just what you said. Obama has said himself several times that the government can only do so much, and most of us agree it's going to have to be a combined effort. Anyone who thinks otherwise be it the government will save all or the private sector will save all is just fooling themselves.
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Old 03-05-2009, 03:08 PM   #137
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http://www.cato.org/special/stimulus...o_stimulus.pdf
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Old 03-05-2009, 03:14 PM   #138
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Like I said previously, I agree that the system as it is now is not working, but that doesn't mean just stop and pull out.
I guess that depends on what is meant by government pulling back. Frankly I think the big bailouts need to stop. Let the market adjust itself, however harshly, and spend government money on sustaining workers and families in transition through unemployment, retraining and national healthcare.
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Old 03-05-2009, 03:28 PM   #139
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I guess that depends on what is meant by government pulling back. Frankly I think the big bailouts need to stop. Let the market adjust itself, however harshly, and spend government money on sustaining workers and families in transition through unemployment, retraining and national healthcare.
I agree. Let the bubble pop and the market will correct itself. The market is inherently self-correcting. FDR's spending did nothing for the economy except prolong it by seven years. It was monetary demand that lifted us out of the Great Depression, not government intervention.

And it was government intervention that started this mess to begin with, forcing financial and lending institutions to take on risk they otherwise would not have.
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Old 03-05-2009, 04:53 PM   #140
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I guess that depends on what is meant by government pulling back. Frankly I think the big bailouts need to stop. Let the market adjust itself, however harshly, and spend government money on sustaining workers and families in transition through unemployment, retraining and national healthcare.
I don't agree with all the bailouts, but to think the market will just correct itself at this point is pretty short sighted.

If the American automobile system collapsed you are not only sending the manufacturers home; you are shutting down those that fabricate the seats, the seat belts, mirrors, etc these are all seperate entities. These are not all done on site, so you put out dozens of industries, most of which are specailized and can't restructure. Millions unemployed. How does the market just correct itself after that? Especially if you have several industries that collapse at the same time? Please do tell...

I loved it the other day, Hannity got called out on this, he's been talking about the market correcting himself for months but someone asked him how will it do that, he just fumbled around for 15 seconds and said "we're a great people that can pick itself up by the bootstraps". Great answer Sean.

The theory that it would just correct itself is a nice one if it was one small industry at a time.
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Old 03-05-2009, 05:16 PM   #141
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How would a market not correct itself, eventually?
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Old 03-05-2009, 05:18 PM   #142
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It would be a bit Darwinian.

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Old 03-05-2009, 05:27 PM   #143
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It isn't strictly Darwinian, but economies are definitely a type of evolutionary system, the dynamics of a free market and the natural world share common elements, and show emergent complexity.
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Old 03-05-2009, 05:58 PM   #144
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How would a market not correct itself, eventually?

Instead of framing such an akward question why don't you answer the original question and tell me how it would...

Are you saying every market or capitalistic market has healed itself in history?
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Old 03-05-2009, 06:12 PM   #145
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If the American automobile system collapsed you are not only sending the manufacturers home; you are shutting down those that fabricate the seats, the seat belts, mirrors, etc these are all seperate entities. These are not all done on site, so you put out dozens of industries, most of which are specailized and can't restructure. Millions unemployed. How does the market just correct itself after that? Especially if you have several industries that collapse at the same time? Please do tell...
I don't have any real answers, but I do have some questions?

Yes, I bought the first auto bailout for the reasons you cited.

But, it seems like this is not temporary. It is spreading and not just a U S auto industry problem. People are just not consuming at the same unnecessary rate. Our auto industry may end up where people actually buy cars when the need them. Not when they get a whim, because their old (2 year old) car is not as shiny.

The music industry has had to reinvent itself.
The newspaper industry, is/ will have to reinvent itself.

It may be cheaper to pay many auto workers and related businesses unemployment and medicare. Than to keep giving billions to a dying industry.

No doubt, there will be autos made, distributed and sold in the U S. There may be more economic ways to do this, just like with the creation and distribution of music.

I used to buy cut outs. L Ps that were over produced, so they cut the corners off and sold them for $1 instead of $5. The same with C Ds, they drilled holes in the jewel case and sold them at 20% of the new cost.
Have you ever seen any over produced mp3s?


Why manufacture thousands? millions? of cars that no one has requested?
and store them on dealership lots all over the country?

Virgin Record Stores and Tower Record Stores were great, I spend thousands of hours in record stores, I even managed one in Hollywood for awhile, in the 70s

Are we doing the auto industry right?
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Old 03-05-2009, 06:29 PM   #146
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I don't agree with all the bailouts, but to think the market will just correct itself at this point is pretty short sighted.

If the American automobile system collapsed you are not only sending the manufacturers home; you are shutting down those that fabricate the seats, the seat belts, mirrors, etc these are all seperate entities. These are not all done on site, so you put out dozens of industries, most of which are specailized and can't restructure. Millions unemployed. How does the market just correct itself after that? Especially if you have several industries that collapse at the same time? Please do tell...

I loved it the other day, Hannity got called out on this, he's been talking about the market correcting himself for months but someone asked him how will it do that, he just fumbled around for 15 seconds and said "we're a great people that can pick itself up by the bootstraps". Great answer Sean.

The theory that it would just correct itself is a nice one if it was one small industry at a time.
What's really shortsighted is the idea of Keynesian economics. Government can't inject money into the economy without first taking money out of the economy, so it borrows it. There's no increase in national income, it just redistributes it from the right pocket to the left.

Hoover and Roosevelt tried it and it didn't work. Gerald Ford and Bush tried it and it didn't work. During the 90s, Japan tried and they sufferred the Lost Decade.

As for the automakers:

Don't Bail Out the Big Three

There's nothing wrong with a "Big Two" | Cato's Center for Trade Policy Studies

America without its automakers | Cato's Center for Trade Policy Studies

It's 65 Million B.C. for the Detroit Three: Why use taxpayer money to postpone the inevitable? - Reason Magazine

YouTube - Bailing Out the Big Three - Why reward Detroit (and punish taxpayers) for making unprofitable cars?

YouTube - Where's Sock Puppet's Bailout?

The stregnth of America, unlike other countries, is that our market fluctuates. Certain jobs are destroyed and certain jobs are created. Places like France, Germany and Spain fight very hard to protect jobs, but as a result they have higher unemployment rates, even before this mess.

And how about you listen, analyze, and critique, I don't know, actual economists instead of boring radio/TV hosts?
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Old 03-05-2009, 06:41 PM   #147
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Let me try:



Wake me up when the stock market hits 4000.00.

<>
Indeed. We're all still waiting for a coherent plan from the Treasury secretary and his team. Wasn't this administration supposed to hit the ground running?

Understaffed Geithner can't keep up, critics say


Or maybe today was 'Health Care Summit Day' at the White House.
Or 'Green Energy (your light bill is going up up up) Day'.
Or 'Stomp Rush Day'.

How many jobs are disappearing every month?
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Old 03-05-2009, 06:42 PM   #148
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Are we doing the auto industry right?
I agree with you line of thinking. The auto industry has been profiting while lazily shooting itself in the foot for years. I'm hoping that this will be a realization that they too are vulnerable and actually start innovating again.
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Old 03-05-2009, 06:46 PM   #149
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when cell phones became popular, att had to lay off ppl.

change will always be w us.

therefore let change happen instead of throwing money away.

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Old 03-05-2009, 06:46 PM   #150
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And how about you listen, analyze, and critique, I don't know, actual economists instead of boring radio/TV hosts?

I actually do, it's just you have to listen the blowhards sometime to know where others are coming from...

But it's becoming blantantly obvious to me that those that are just saying it will heal, don't really know how.

You never once answered my question. Some cute videos and some interesting articles but they didn't answer my question either...
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