Go Home Human Shields, You U.S. Wankers... Iraqi Citizens topple main Saddam Statue

[FizzingWhizzbees]

P.S. Sorry it took me so long to reply to your post, Dreadsox...I spent most of yesterday on a train!

 

[Dreadsox]

It's alright Fizz. I should not have responded anyway. I am near the point that I do not believe anything anyone types in here makes anyone change their minds on any issue.

I cannot agree with your interpretations. I would like to see the quotes in context. Everything I have read, shows that the program worked in areas that the UN was distributing food. As a matter of fact, when we debated this months ago, I spent a great deal of time citing the fact that:

*Unicef was restricted in the areas they were allowed to go.
*The population in areas under UN control had a growth rate better than before the Iran Iraq War
*The Food for Oil program food and medical supplies were being sold on the black market.
*Tikrit and other cities had wharehouses of food and med supplies while SHi'ite areas were not getting any.
*Hospitals and Water treatment plants were closed by the GOvernment in areas in the south not supportive of Saddam.
*Medical equiptement was moved to cities like Tikrit, along with sanitation equitment.
*Saddam used taxes to steal money out of the food for oil program.

ect...ect....ect....

My heart is not in it. It is the same debate again and again. Nothing we type here, will change a mind. Your mind is made up. Mine is made up.

I find it laughable that people believe that Saddam was not responsible. I outlined months ago the way he destroyed the medical and water system in his own country. I also find it horrific that the Program Saddam used to distribute Food, would be defended by anyone.

I am tired I guess. Too tired to retype sources, quotes, ect.

Peace

 

[FizzingWhizzbees]

Dreadsox,

I guess you're right that I won't change my mind on this issue. I have seen far too much evidence that sanctions caused horrendous suffering to the Iraqi people to suddenly believe that sanctions weren't really so terrible. Most of that evidence is from people who were actually working in Iraq at that time and have stated that they couldn't get food supplies or medication because of the sanctions.

I don't dispute that Saddam contributed to the suffering of the Iraqi people. The UN knew that Saddam would not be likely to alleviate the suffering of his people, and therefore I believe it was the responsibility of the UN to ensure that people weren't suffering because of sanctions. People would have suffered under Saddam regardless of whether sanctions were imposed, but from what I've read I believe that sanctions greatly increased that suffering.

 

[Dreadsox]

Dreadsox,

I guess you're right that I won't change my mind on this issue. I have seen far too much evidence that sanctions caused horrendous suffering to the Iraqi people to suddenly believe that sanctions weren't really so terrible. Most of that evidence is from people who were actually working in Iraq at that time and have stated that they couldn't get food supplies or medication because of the sanctions.

While you say the sanctions were terrible, I would say that allowing Saddam to be responsible for the distribution of the food and medical supplies is what MADE it terrible.

My understanding is that the UN was only allowed to distribute in very specific areas, and that the program worked well in those areas.

I don't dispute that Saddam contributed to the suffering of the Iraqi people. The UN knew that Saddam would not be likely to alleviate the suffering of his people, and therefore I believe it was the responsibility of the UN to ensure that people weren't suffering because of sanctions. People would have suffered under Saddam regardless of whether sanctions were imposed, but from what I've read I believe that sanctions greatly increased that suffering.

I almost think we are saying the same thing. The difference is, I do not blame the sanctions. I blame Saddam, and I blame the UN Security Council for not changing the system, so that it was under UN Control.

 

[diamond]

thanks to soldiers like this Human Shields are no longer needed
The liberation of Iraq has been successful.

Thanks to the Coalition Forces the UN Sanctions have been lifted

With the dismissal of Saddam,UN Sanctions are no longer needed for a liberated nation.
"No Fly Zones" exist no more.

War Protesters were and still are irrelevant...

DB9

 

[sharky]

I almost think we are saying the same thing. The difference is, I do not blame the sanctions. I blame Saddam, and I blame the UN Security Council for not changing the system, so that it was under UN Control.

Unfortunately, the UN couldn't do that. Technically, the UN does not have the power to go in to a nation like that without being invited. Sactions can be controlled outside the country. Iraq had to agree to the oil for food program and what would go where. I believe there was a story about British soldiers finding a warehouse full of food that was supposed to be part of the oil for food program but wasn't being distributed. Final control of that food was in the hands of Iraq, not the UN.

 

[Klaus]

Dreadsox:

there is no "the UN" the Food for Oil program and the Weapon inspections changed a lot when the head of these programs came from other countries.

There are still a lot of economic and strategic interests of countries which are (sometimes?) more important than the problems themself.

Klaus

 

[Dreadsox]

I will reread one of my books. My understanding is that the UN distributed aid in some parts of Iraq. If I am mistaken I will come back. I distinctly remember that there were distinct differences between areas in which the UN had distributed food, and areas that were allegedly receiving aid.

I do not quite get why, this is again becoming an issue on this board when it has been debated in at least three other threads since September.

Peace

 

[Dreadsox]

I just rechecked......The UN was distributing food in Kurdistan. The food distribution here reduced infant mortality rates to lower than before the GUlf War.

In the areas under Saddam's control some areas had double the infant mortality rate had doubled as of 1999.

Very big difference.

Peace

 

[STING2]

I just like to state for the record that the parts of Iraq that Saddam controled were under a police state. Saddam had the means to give or deny food to anyone in those area's. All the evidence shows that Iraq purchased more than enough food and medicine to care for a population much larger than it had. Of course much of this food and medicine was found being resold to Jordan and other countries through blackmarket. Saddam had plenty of money to develop and provide anything that may have been difficult to supply through the sanctions regime. Without sanctions, Saddam would still control the means of distribution throughout Iraq, so this idea that if one were to lift the sanctions these alleged problems would go away is illogical. Saddam purposely created humanitarian problems in order to get sanctions completely lifted.

Sanctions started with some teeth but after a couple of years were starting to get thin. By the year 2000, the weapons embargo was all that was really left and even that was penetrated obviously through Syria. Saddam was making Billions of dollars annually through the black market. The fact is the money and resources were there to alleviate any suffering in the country. The only reason any suffering happened was because of Saddam and not sanctions. If sanctions had been completely lifted this suffering would have continued because Saddam saw it as a useful weapon against his potential enemies in the country.

 

[Dreadsox]