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View Poll Results: Will the Republicans continue slandering the Democrats as terrorism appeasers?
Yes, the Republicans have become addicted to the politics of fear. It's all they know how to do 29 82.86%
No, the Republicans will learn the lessons from the results and stop slandering their opponents 2 5.71%
The Democrats ARE terrorist appeasers. I believe everything Karl Rove tells me. 4 11.43%
Voters: 35. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
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Old 11-13-2006, 12:52 AM   #31
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Re: Re: Re: Wow. Just...wow.

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Originally posted by Diemen

You don't find any problem reconciling your Christian faith with your pro-torture stance? I am honestly baffled how ANYBODY could so easily condone torture and even pretend to walk the Christian path. More than that, I'm a bit baffled that one could be ok with such outstanding cruelty to another human being and then dare to point out someone else's allegedly "sinful" behavior that harms no one.
I'll start with this. Outstanding cruelty is chopping off reporters' heads. Outstanding cruelty is blowing up bombs in crowded places to kill innocent men, women and children. Outstanding cruelty is hijacking planes and flying them into the Twin Towers and the Pentagon and killing 3,000 innocent people. That's outstanding cruelty.

In the original thread about "waterboarding", I stated the conditions under which I would approve of it, and I'll say it again. If it is very certain that the suspect is a terrorist and has knowledge that could prevent a muder plot from happening, I would approve it, as a last resort.

If you would be unwilling to do that to a murderous terrorist to prevent the death of innocents, I pray you are never in a position in which you have to decide what to do with these monsters.
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Old 11-13-2006, 01:02 AM   #32
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Wow. Just...wow.

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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


I'll start with this. Outstanding cruelty is chopping off reporters' heads. Outstanding cruelty is blowing up bombs in crowded places to kill innocent men, women and children. Outstanding cruelty is hijacking planes and flying them into the Twin Towers and the Pentagon and killing 3,000 innocent people. That's outstanding cruelty.

But that's the problem, it doesn't start there. These actions aren't the thermometer from which to measure from. Did Jesus measure his actions based on the actions of the worst evil? No.
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Old 11-13-2006, 01:02 AM   #33
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Re: Re: Re: Wow. Just...wow.

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Originally posted by Diemen

Key word "could." As in, it could possibly save innocent lives, or it could possibly be a lie said out of desperation to stop the torture. And that is what it is, make no mistake about it.
Did you see the report by Investigative Reporter Brian Ross? He said that in the cases he's studied, waterboarding is very effective in getting useful information. Ross has stated in other forums, is that the six techniques advocated for by the CIA do work very effectively. Ross has stated that 14 terrorists have been interrogated using these methods, and all 14 have given up useful intelligence that has saved American lives as a result. None of these terrorists have been permanently injured using these techniques. According toRoss, water boarding cracked Khalid Sheik Mohammed and led to info that disrupted a plot to crash airliners into the library tower in LA.
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Old 11-13-2006, 01:04 AM   #34
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wow. Just...wow.

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But that's the problem, it doesn't start there. These actions aren't the thermometer from which to measure from. Did Jesus measure his actions based on the actions of the worst evil? No.
Jesus never spoke about how the government should handle terrorism, did he?
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Old 11-13-2006, 01:08 AM   #35
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wow. Just...wow.

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Did Jesus measure his actions based on the actions of the worst evil? No.
Jesus Christ came for 2 purposes:

(1)That the world might be saved through him
(2) To destroy the works of the devil.

Christ did not teach about how to run wars, how a government should protect its' people. That was not on his schedule.
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Old 11-13-2006, 01:12 AM   #36
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wow. Just...wow.

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Jesus never spoke about how the government should handle terrorism, did he?
That wasn't the original question asked of you.
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Old 11-13-2006, 01:13 AM   #37
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I'm through with this and all talk of the election. I know I'm just making you folks mad, and quite frankly, I am getting mad. There's no good that will come from any of this.
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Old 11-13-2006, 01:18 AM   #38
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wow. Just...wow.

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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


That wasn't the original question asked of you.
In a previous post, I said I wouldn't talk about this anymore, but I owe you a more direct answer to your question.

Jesus said "do not repay evil for evil". That is true.

I am not talking about "repaying evil with evil". I am simply saying that if it will save innocent lives, I support using some harsh coercian techniques against terrorists.

And yes, my actions toward a criminal would differ according to the crime committed.

I wouldn't even think of waterboarding a thief to prevent a robbery. To prevent the murdre of innocent people, I would waterboard a terrorist.
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Old 11-13-2006, 01:26 AM   #39
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It shouldn't matter how effective the method of torture might be. It is still torture.

Maybe they should add an asterisk at the end of the Culture of Life/Dignity of life slogan. Culture of Life*

*Unless you're a bad guy
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Old 11-13-2006, 01:29 AM   #40
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Wow. Just...wow.

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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


Did you see the report by Investigative Reporter Brian Ross? He said that in the cases he's studied, waterboarding is very effective in getting useful information. Ross has stated in other forums, is that the six techniques advocated for by the CIA do work very effectively. Ross has stated that 14 terrorists have been interrogated using these methods, and all 14 have given up useful intelligence that has saved American lives as a result. None of these terrorists have been permanently injured using these techniques. According toRoss, water boarding cracked Khalid Sheik Mohammed and led to info that disrupted a plot to crash airliners into the library tower in LA.
And where did Investigative Reporter Brian Ross get his information? The military. The ones doing the torturing. Highly objective sources there.
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Old 11-13-2006, 01:29 AM   #41
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Ah the restrictions of theology; Jesus is irrelevent in the situation of men like KSM - they should be coerced be it with sex, humiliation, alcohol, pork or hallucinogenic drugs; inflicting pain should be allowed as a last resort in cases where there is an established plot and the authorisation is granted with independent oversight.
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Old 11-13-2006, 01:33 AM   #42
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Well, of course if torture is acceptable as a method to protect the U.S. The U.S better be willing to forfeit the right to complain or protest against torture by other nations against U.S citizens.
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Old 11-13-2006, 07:55 AM   #43
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wow. Just...wow.

Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest
Jesus Christ came for 2 purposes:

(1)That the world might be saved through him
(2) To destroy the works of the devil.

Christ did not teach about how to run wars, how a government should protect its' people. That was not on his schedule.
But preventing two people who love each other from marrying: check. Determining the uses of my reproductive organs: check.

Using torture to gain information: You're on your own, guys.
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Old 11-13-2006, 08:13 AM   #44
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wow. Just...wow.

Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest
Jesus said "do not repay evil for evil". That is true.

I am not talking about "repaying evil with evil". I am simply saying that if it will save innocent lives, I support using some harsh coercian techniques against terrorists.

And yes, my actions toward a criminal would differ according to the crime committed.
So then "intention" comes into play when something is sinful? Sounds like a selectively non-essentialist argument, which would make conservative Christians hypocrites.
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Old 11-13-2006, 09:06 AM   #45
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I was traveling in Utah this weekend, so I was thinking about how Republican Christians can think two things simultaneously. First, they can preach that Jesus is Love and Peace, than they can continuously support a party that for the last six years has been about lying, cheating, and killing. Where in the Bible do they find the approval for lying, cheating, and killing?

And then they say I'm going to hell.
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