Give a Legitimate Argument For McCain, Against Obama

[phillyfan26]

Wasn't Bush a crack addict?

 

[2861U2]

That means talking about the actual issues.

Rules of this thread: No talk of experience. No talk of Obama being all about change and hope.

Well I kind of disagree with the premise here. I think these are certainly valid points and I expect McCain to use them.

But I'll play along.


The United States cannot pull out of Iraq now. We cannot abandon the Iraqi people and let them get slaughtered. McCain understands there are nutjobs out there that want us dead and he's a fighter, and has much more military knowledge and understanding than Obama. You can't even compare the two here. I'd trust McCain in the war against terrorism a LOT more than I would Obama, who wants to bomb Pakistan.

McCain supports the tax cuts and would make them permanent. With one kid in college, one just out of college, and one a few years away from entering college, I really would hate for my parents to be paying more in taxes for unnecessary things, like someone else's healthcare.

Spending- kind of goes along with taxes. I heard somewhere that Obama would introduce a total of about $200 billion of new spending. I like smaller government.

Immigration- I disagreed with his immigration bill, but I like how he has come around and realized how unpopular it was, and that the border needs to be secure.

McCain is a moderate and could get things accomplished. Obama is the number one most liberal (Oh, sorry, I forgot- you prefer "progressive") senator. Having him as president just scares me.

 

[anitram]

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I knew someone was going to bring this up. I'm not even going to pursue this. Drugs and alchohol are not equal. Until drugs are legalized I'm not participating in the debate. I'll have a beer, you do cocaine. To each his own.

Except Bush didn't have a beer, he was an addicted alcoholic.

Quite something else from a person trying this drug or that and ending it there.

 

[BVS]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Give a Legitimate Argument For McCain, Against Obama

I knew someone was going to bring this up. I'm not even going to pursue this. Drugs and alchohol are not equal. Until drugs are legalized I'm not participating in the debate. I'll have a beer, you do cocaine. To each his own.

This doesn't even make sense. I'm not comparing drugs to alcohol. I'm comparing someone who dabbled and someone who is ADDICTED. Which one speaks of weaker will? Plus Bush may have not admitted to his drug use, but there were drugs in his past as well.

I'm sorry, but this is weak.

 

[U2isthebest]

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Where the hell do you get this idea from? I think that, among all of this, might be the biggest bullshit I've read about Obama.

I agree. To me, that's what the media and nation in general is projecting onto Obama's campaign. It's certainly not anything he's said or even implied that I've seen, other than a few comments that essentially say how greatful he feels to be able to run for president of a country where he likely would've been denied the right to vote 45 years ago. There is nothing wrong or opportunistic about statements like that at all. It's a testament to what our country can be when we mix a public call, public passion and public work for change with government policies that begin to create equality, justice, and liberty for everybody. That's what the U.S. is supposed to be.

 

[phillyfan26]

Bush was an alcoholic and a cocaine addict. As an adult, no less.

Obama used cocaine a few times at a young age.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

I've seen plenty of people in my life extremely messed up due to alcohol abuse and/or addiction. Alcohol is a drug. A strong willed person faces up to their problem and gets help for it if it is a problem and quits, and is honest about their drug use just like Senator Obama is. That is what strong will is. George Bush faced up to his alcohol addiction and stopped, and I admire him tremendously for that.

To bring up Senator Obama's admitted drug use as some sort of indication of any sort of weak will or character is really stretching in my opinion. We all have our flaws and weaknesses, it's how we face them that matters.

 

[deep]

Wasn't Bush a crack addict?

There is a suspicion that Bush used cocaine

and that he may have even done some community service because of it

but with his family's influence there is no record of it

and he / they will not talk about it



Now Obama,

those of you that have read the book?

I believe he openly discusses smoking pot and using cocaine?

Is this correct?

 

[Snowlock]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Give a Legitimate Argument For McCain, Against Obama

Where the hell do you get this idea from? I think that, among all of this, might be the biggest bullshit I've read about Obama.

No, it's not bullshit, but hey here we go again from the liberal mob.

Philly, you're full of bullshit.

There. now that I'm down to your level, do you want to continue?

When's the moderator going to come in and condem me for attacking fellow posters? Waiting...

You all need to grow up.

 

[BVS]

Re: Re: Give a Legitimate Argument For McCain, Against Obama

The United States cannot pull out of Iraq now. We cannot abandon the Iraqi people and let them get slaughtered. McCain understands there are nutjobs out there that want us dead and he's a fighter, and has much more military knowledge and understanding than Obama. You can't even compare the two here. I'd trust McCain in the war against terrorism a LOT more than I would Obama, who wants to bomb Pakistan.

What a strong grasp of the issues you have.

McCain supports the tax cuts and would make them permanent. With one kid in college, one just out of college, and one a few years away from entering college, I really would hate for my parents to be paying more in taxes for unnecessary things, like someone else's healthcare.

Tax cuts during one of the biggest times of debt in history, woo hoo!!! Healthcare unnecessary. Wow only a conservative...

I like smaller government.

No, you don't. I've seen the things you support. You are a neo-con in the truest since, you are not small government.

 

[BVS]

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You all need to grow up.

 

[phillyfan26]

Re: Re: Give a Legitimate Argument For McCain, Against Obama

The United States cannot pull out of Iraq now. We cannot abandon the Iraqi people and let them get slaughtered. McCain understands there are nutjobs out there that want us dead and he's a fighter, and has much more military knowledge and understanding than Obama. You can't even compare the two here. I'd trust McCain in the war against terrorism a LOT more than I would Obama, who wants to bomb Pakistan.

They're going to get slaughtered whenever we leave: now, or in ten years. We're holding off the inevitable civil war with an unsustainable troop count.

McCain and Iran make me think he's totally nuts.

McCain supports the tax cuts and would make them permanent. With one kid in college, one just out of college, and one a few years away from entering college, I really would hate for my parents to be paying more in taxes for unnecessary things, like someone else's healthcare.

As opposed to what? Paying for someone else's war?

Spending- kind of goes along with taxes. I heard somewhere that Obama would introduce a total of about $200 billion of new spending. I like smaller government.

But he's pulling out of Iraq, which would tremendously reduce spending...

It's funny that you like smaller government and support Bush, who has made government massive.

 

[2861U2]

Re: Re: Re: Give a Legitimate Argument For McCain, Against Obama

No, you don't. I've seen the things you support.

Elaborate.

 

[phillyfan26]

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No, it's not bullshit, but hey here we go again from the liberal mob.

Philly, you're full of bullshit.

There. now that I'm down to your level, do you want to continue?

When's the moderator going to come in and condem me for attacking fellow posters? Waiting...

You all need to grow up.

I said your statement was bullshit, and only part of it. That's a far cry from calling you full of bullshit.

There's been zero indication that Obama wants to run just for the sake of becoming a black president. Zero. None. It hasn't happened.

For people that complain about the hope and change stuff, now suddenly he doesn't even want that? I think it's quite clear that his motivations are for the betterment of the country.

It's funny to hear "Grow up" coming from you.

 

[phillyfan26]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Give a Legitimate Argument For McCain, Against Obama

Elaborate.

George W. Bush.

 

[2861U2]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Give a Legitimate Argument For McCain, Against Obama

George W. Bush.

I'd like complete sentences, please.

You know, believe it or not, I don't agree with everything President Bush has ever done.

 

[Snowlock]

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The rest of your statement, although I strongly disagree with much of it, is a perfectly valid opinion. This, however, is a bit ridiculous. Nearly every candidate for public office that was a teen/young adult during the 1960s or 1970s used drugs during that time. Much of the younger population in general at that time experimented heavily with drugs. Much of the young population today does. It happens regardless of our personal beliefs about it being right or wrong. Our current president and President Clinton both admitted to drug use in the past as have a lot of other people holding high office in our country.

Especially in the 60's and 70's, please provide some numbers on drug usage. The 60's and 70's were much more conservative, drugs much less accessable then you see on TV and in the movies.

And no where did I say using drugs should preclude a person from office, I said I don't like it when they do because it shows a weak will. Clinton, no matter how much you may love him, will never be described as a strong willed individual, and I'm sure you will agree neither will W.

 

[yolland]

Where the hell do you get this idea from? I think that, among all of this, might be the biggest bullshit I've read about Obama.

Please don't be so strident.



Personally my reason for not seeing Obama's admitted past drug use as a serious concern is that he was a teenager at the time, he openly owns up to the nature of it, and there's no evidence I've seen that he experienced substance abuse problems in his adult life. That said, I don't find "Ah, everyone did that in the '70s"-type rationalizations very convincing either--Obama's own description of his drug use in his autobiography suggests that he consciously used drugs and alcohol as an escape from personal problems, which is much closer to an abuse paradigm than a casual experimentation one. Still, for me the fact that he was a teenager and apparently had no such problems as an adult effectively makes it a nonissue--self-destructive 'coping' behaviors are normal enough among teenagers in my view; it's when they continue into the adult years that I'd start getting nervous about the person's fitness for positions of high responsibility.

And yeah, there's definitely a big difference between "having a beer" and being psychologically dependent on alcohol.

 

[phillyfan26]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Give a Legitimate Argument For McCain, Against Obama

I'd like complete sentences, please.

You know, believe it or not, I don't agree with everything President Bush has ever done.

Well, you say you like small government, and he's made government not just big, but massive.

 

[Irvine511]

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I knew someone was going to bring this up. I'm not even going to pursue this. Drugs and alchohol are not equal. Until drugs are legalized I'm not participating in the debate. I'll have a beer, you do cocaine. To each his own.

it's true.

far, far more many lives have been destroyed by alcohol than by drugs.

but that's beside the point ... on a more substantive issue, i think both Hillary and Obama are wildly more competent and effective than Kerry, and i can't think of a more unimpressive candidate than GWB, who has soundly proved himself to be a total disaster.

if anything, i'm quite pleased with the Democratic candidates, and i feel that either Hillary or Obama would have soundly beaten Kerry in '04 (in a weird sort of timewarp). i also think that both McCain and Romney would make better presidents than GWB. so i guess i'm just disputing the overall quality of the field. i think it's stronger than it was in '04.

 

[Irvine511]

Wasn't Bush a crack addict?

it was widely known that Bush abused cocaine in the 1970s.

 

[BoMac]

Re: Re: Give a Legitimate Argument For McCain, Against Obama

McCain supports the tax cuts and would make them permanent. With one kid in college, one just out of college, and one a few years away from entering college, I really would hate for my parents to be paying more in taxes for unnecessary things, like someone else's healthcare.

I usually just lurk in FYM, and try to stay away from the madness, as nothing I say, or nothing anyone else says will change my opinion or vice versa.

That being said, this statement really bothered me. How is healthcare unnecessary? Can you eleborate on what you mean? This type of attitude from conservatives totally baffles me. Have you no compassion? Ok, so your family is able to afford healthcare, that's fantastic. But what about the millions who, no matter what can not afford health insurance. For many, they had the misfortune of being being into a poor family, thus unable to pay for healthcare. What if this was the case for someone in your family, i.e an aunt, uncle, cousin etc. Or a friend. Would you still deem healthcare unnecessary?

 

[Irvine511]

Re: Re: Give a Legitimate Argument For McCain, Against Obama

Obama, who wants to bomb Pakistan.

i'm sorry, i have to call BULLSHIT here.

Obama said that if Pakistan refused to act, he would bomb known Al Qaeda targets within Pakistani borders. so if they had actionable intelligence that Osama Bin Laden were on the move within Pakistani borders, he would drop a bomb on him. that's all. it's quite a hawkish position, i'd think you'd like that.

please, please, please. do some research before tossing out completely false McCain talking points.

 

[corianderstem]

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I'm not comparing drugs to alcohol. I'm comparing someone who dabbled and someone who is ADDICTED. Which one speaks of weaker will?

I don't want to keep veering the thread into this tangent, but I take issue with that.

Addiction is a disease, and equating someone who is an addict with being weak-willed is questionable and unfair.

If you want to argue that he's weak-willed for other reasons, go right ahead.

 

[BVS]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Give a Legitimate Argument For McCain, Against Obama

Elaborate.

You like big government. You want them to be able to wiretap, you want them to be able to tell homosexuals they can't marry, you want more military abroad, the list goes on and on...

You just like using the phrases of old.

 

[Snowlock]

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I said your statement was bullshit, and only part of it. That's a far cry from calling you full of bullshit.

There's been zero indication that Obama wants to run just for the sake of becoming a black president. Zero. None. It hasn't happened.

For people that complain about the hope and change stuff, now suddenly he doesn't even want that? I think it's quite clear that his motivations are for the betterment of the country.

It's funny to hear "Grow up" coming from you.

Base that on something. Please. Go back and quote something in context, providing the quote as well of whoever I'm replying to. I'm so sick of some of you and you're uninformed, historically vacant garbage including opinions on me. So why don't you go back into some past threads, search by my name, and post some of my responses. But also, post some of the previous repsonses to me. Just like you're "bullshit" comment. Have I ever said some of the crap you've spewed is bullshit? No. In fact, I've never said a negative thing about you even though I probably would value the opinion of Paris Hilton over yours.

There's been zero indication, Philly, TO YOU. Do you think he's just gonna come out and say it? I'M saying given that he was just elected to the senate in a major upset, and all the press that it generated, it was inevitable, the OPPORTUNITY was too great to NOT run for president. He's not ready. Everyone knows he's not. You even know it which is why you didn't want to have experience as part of the discussion. But what he's got is momentum. Running because of momentum implies that he's running to win. WIN, not improve the country.

And no, Paris, Bush never smoked crack.

 

[phillyfan26]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Give a Legitimate Argument For McCain, Agains

I'm so sick of some of you and you're uninformed, historically vacant garbage including opinions on me.

There's been zero indication, Philly, TO YOU. Do you think he's just gonna come out and say it? I'M saying given that he was just elected to the senate in a major upset, and all the press that it generated, it was inevitable, the OPPORTUNITY was too great to NOT run for president. He's not ready. Everyone knows he's not. You even know it which is why you didn't want to have experience as part of the discussion. But what he's got is momentum. Running because of momentum implies that he's running to win. WIN, not improve the country.

And no, Paris, Bush never smoked crack.

That sentence up there cracked me up: "you're uninformed garbage." I like that.

But yeah, surely I'll bring up some threads of yours to illustrate my opinion of you. I don't really care if you've never said anything to me. You've been rude to plenty of people around here, and I remember.

I'm going to ask you the same thing: "Base that on something." Give me one indication why his race has anything to do with his motivation to run. Give me something that says he doesn't want to improve the country. Some quote, some action. Give it to me.

Why was he arrested for cocaine posession in the early '70s if he never smoked it?

 

[BoMac]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Give a Legitimate Argument For McCain, Agains

Why was he arrested for cocaine posession in the early '70s if he never smoked it?

He was holding it for a friend.

 

[BVS]

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I don't want to keep veering the thread into this tangent, but I take issue with that.

Addiction is a disease, and equating someone who is an addict with being weak-willed is questionable and unfair.

If you want to argue that he's weak-willed for other reasons, go right ahead.

I completely agree. But I used weak-willed for two reasons, one the original post of Snowlocks equating dabbling to weak-willed. And two many AA programs will teach that addiction is a disease, but giving into that addiction is a matter of weakness.

I honestly applaud Bush for being able to give up drinking. But another thing you'll learn in addicition programs that you are always addicted, you are an addict for life. But I've said it in here time after time, recovering addicts are capable of many great things, but having the power of the US in your hands is not one I want to see in a recovering addict's hands.




I think snowlock's mention of drug use was probably one of the weakest things I've seen in here in a long while...

 

[phillyfan26]

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He was holding it for a friend.

I wonder if the friend was Michael Irvin, who was also going to hold it for a friend?