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Old 12-23-2004, 01:57 AM   #76
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Im guessing the dress has a nylon lining though and that WOULD burn like the buggery.
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Old 12-23-2004, 02:56 AM   #77
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she could have those fangled plastic sequins that spotlight sell by the tubload!

THEY'D burn like all buggery!
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Old 12-23-2004, 02:59 AM   #78
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Thats true. Shes does look like a spotlight kinda girl. Yes, well spotted.
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Old 12-23-2004, 03:38 AM   #79
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my only point on this issue is that she has no right to sue because she KNEW it would cause a problem and she did it anyway. If she is playing the innocent victim here she is a liar because she WANTED to create a stir with her dress.

We talk of free speech but would it be ok for a student of German heritage to wear a dress with a swastika if they claimed that their grand-father fought proudly on the side of the Nazis in WWII? How about a daughter of a KKK member wearing a dress that read " die niggers"?

Free speech is a wonderful thing, but the time and place should be picked carefully. I think the school was absolutely right to do what they did. If her dress was going to cause pain for others and ruin prom for other students than she had absolutely no right to wear it. Like I said, I believe she wanted this all to happen so she could cry "poor me"
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Old 12-23-2004, 04:28 AM   #80
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Quote:
Originally posted by beli
Thats true. Shes does look like a spotlight kinda girl. Yes, well spotted.
you and me bel one day need to do our own show called 'what not to wear - or be caught dead in'
with specials on wedding frocks.

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Old 12-23-2004, 05:23 AM   #81
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For me the Confederate flag is repulsive for what is represents. But I don't think that everyone in the South is racist either.

I agree that free speech should be tempered w/ sensitivity. Too bad some people don't have the instincts to do that on their own, and that's when the problems arise.
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Old 12-23-2004, 05:57 AM   #82
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As a Southerner, this really bothers me. Yes, we have a heritage which includes human rights abuses, like so many other people all over the planet. I am not proud of the aspect of our heritage that denied so many people their human dignity. Some aspects of our heritage are definitely interesting, such as our manner of speech. We have a great musical heritage. Elvis, Johnny Cash, B.B. King, other blues guys, were all from the South. The Confederate war flag doesn't represent these things at all. I'm not for banning the Confederate war flag, but there's a right place for them--in historical places, where you don't whitewash the past, you show it all. We have Confederate museums all over. I think the flags belong in museums and historical places, not at the prom. Gosh, what an unattractive dress. I think that sucks, I'm all for freedom of speech and such, but if you use something that controversial, you'd better be ready to take the controversy or shut up. Screw her lawsuit. It's another "blame game" trip, very stupid.
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Old 12-23-2004, 06:01 AM   #83
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It's not a crime of free speech it is a crime of fashion sense.
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Old 12-23-2004, 06:02 AM   #84
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Any arguments about free speech do not make any sense. You are NOT allowed to say or do anything you want while at school. The prom is a school function and must adhere to the same rules. Just as anyone would know that you can't wear a confederate flag to school, you also can't wear one to the prom.
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Old 12-23-2004, 06:21 AM   #85
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I don't think it's fair to call everyone in the south in those days 'ignorant'. Remember this country was started by the 'ignorant' George Washington and Thomas Jefferson and many other slave owners. I know it does no good to tell you all this, but it's not really fair to judge those people by 21st century standards. They were raised and lived a different way, and as I've said about other issues, people will twist, justify, and rationalize ANYTHING if they want to do it and not feel guilty. Some of them even found passages in the Bible (and there are some) to back up the master/slave thing as 'okay.' (ignoring, of course, the entire Moses saga about how bad it was to keep slaves and they should go free, and many old slave spirituals mentioned Moses so I know they saw this) People will pick and choose the things that make them feel more comfortable with their position. When the abolitionists, who were mostly religious and some of them extremists, started bugging the southerners to end slavery, some of the slaveholders' comments were 'don't try to run my life, stay out of my business' and 'if you don't want slaves don't own them but don't deny me my right' sound familiar? They also used the old dehumanizing factor to make themselves feel like they weren't a total human being (again harking to another issue of today) and even convincing themselves that they were HELPING the slaves because they were like 'children' and couldn't take care of themselves! Of course, all this is wrong, but those people, even very otherwise good, intelligent and learned men, felt that way because they had been raised that way and it was convenient to them so they could go ahead and do it and not feel guilty. It happens with a lot of things. While this is no excuse, it is something to consider before you label them all 'ignorant' and 'evil.' In their time, in their place, they were not.

And while you're on 'human rights abuses' don't forget the shout out to the Union armies under Sherman and Sheridan who targeted civilians even if they had nothing to do with the war and owned no slaves. Homes were destroyed, women of both races raped, things stolen. Farms were burned, loaded barns and crops in the field destroyed. Houses were burned down around helpless women and children. Towns were under seige, the Union army hurling cannonballs and explosives which randomly hit homes and businesses until in some places, like Vicksburg, Miss., they were forced to live underground! Both there and in Petersburg, VA, the civilians resorted to eating rats! And some of you think Americans have never suffered from a war. This was a legacy of hatred that did not go away either. Then give kudos to those conquering heroes for going out west declaring 'the only good Indian is a dead Indian' and performing genocide, yes genocide, on the Native tribes, including women and children, some in places that had been declared 'safe' by the US government!
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Old 12-23-2004, 06:37 AM   #86
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Quote:
Originally posted by U2Kitten
While this is no excuse, it is something to consider before you label them all 'ignorant' and 'evil.' In their time, in their place, they were not.
You are right, it is NO excuse. Some day our generation will be judged as ignorant for certain human rights issues based on all the same reasoning you used, but it doesn't mean they wrong in pointing that out. This is how we learn and grow. If you are telling people to accept these human rights issues as "that's how they were raised" then you are supporting a cycle of ignorance.

Quote:
Originally posted by U2Kitten
And while you're on 'human rights abuses' ...[/B]
Yes the North committed crimes as well. I've lived in the North and the South. Never did I meet Northeners who still to this day hate the south, or fly Union flags on their cars, or say the North will rise again and squash the South. It's fine to be proud of where you grew up, but it's another thing to make excuses for their mistakes. But don't embrace their mistakes, you are just going to take us back 4 steps.
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Old 12-23-2004, 06:39 AM   #87
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Quote:
Originally posted by U2Kitten
I don't think it's fair to call everyone in the south in those days 'ignorant'. Remember this country was started by the 'ignorant' George Washington and Thomas Jefferson and many other slave owners. I know it does no good to tell you all this, but it's not really fair to judge those people by 21st century standards. They were raised and lived a different way, and as I've said about other issues, people will twist, justify, and rationalize ANYTHING if they want to do it and not feel guilty. Some of them even found passages in the Bible (and there are some) to back up the master/slave thing as 'okay.' (ignoring, of course, the entire Moses saga about how bad it was to keep slaves and they should go free, and many old slave spirituals mentioned Moses so I know they saw this) People will pick and choose the things that make them feel more comfortable with their position. When the abolitionists, who were mostly religious and some of them extremists, started bugging the southerners to end slavery, some of the slaveholders' comments were 'don't try to run my life, stay out of my business' and 'if you don't want slaves don't own them but don't deny me my right' sound familiar? They also used the old dehumanizing factor to make themselves feel like they weren't a total human being (again harking to another issue of today) and even convincing themselves that they were HELPING the slaves because they were like 'children' and couldn't take care of themselves! Of course, all this is wrong, but those people, even very otherwise good, intelligent and learned men, felt that way because they had been raised that way and it was convenient to them so they could go ahead and do it and not feel guilty. It happens with a lot of things. While this is no excuse, it is something to consider before you label them all 'ignorant' and 'evil.' In their time, in their place, they were not.

And while you're on 'human rights abuses' don't forget the shout out to the Union armies under Sherman and Sheridan who targeted civilians even if they had nothing to do with the war and owned no slaves. Homes were destroyed, women of both races raped, things stolen. Farms were burned, loaded barns and crops in the field destroyed. Houses were burned down around helpless women and children. Towns were under seige, the Union army hurling cannonballs and explosives which randomly hit homes and businesses until in some places, like Vicksburg, Miss., they were forced to live underground! Both there and in Petersburg, VA, the civilians resorted to eating rats! And some of you think Americans have never suffered from a war. This was a legacy of hatred that did not go away either. Then give kudos to those conquering heroes for going out west declaring 'the only good Indian is a dead Indian' and performing genocide, yes genocide, on the Native tribes, including women and children, some in places that had been declared 'safe' by the US government!
There is a lot of truth in this. While I abhor slavery, there were a lot of great men and a lot of evil on both sides of the war. While we claim the war was all about slavery, it wasn't at the time, it was only part of it. Most of the people in the union really couldn't care less about slavery and most of the people in the confederacy did not own slaves. Read Cold Mountain to get the perspective of more typical people at that time (you could watch the movie instead but it is not nearly as good).

That said, I don't think people should display the confederate flag outside of museums and at historical functions. It conjures up too many bad memories.
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Old 12-23-2004, 07:18 AM   #88
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I'm from Va also and I agree we must learn from our mistakes. That said, many have or will not because they must feel superior to others. They are just freaking ignorant. I find the most racist white people are economically challenged as well it seems the farther down the money ladder you go the worse it gets.



It is freaking ugly too *thinking Tammy Fay Baker*
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Old 12-23-2004, 07:24 AM   #89
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That's right, the war was not just about slavery. The Union people were not all angels and the Confederates all demons, that's making a complex situation too simple. It was a clash of differing economies, an agrarian one in the South and an industrial one in the North. There were also abuses in the early industrial world, what with no child labor laws and other evils. Most Southerners didn't own slaves, it was mainly the wealthy, some middle class people could afford maybe one or two, but most did not own them. That said I don't think Confederate flags should be used outside of historical displays. I think if you do show the Confederate flag elsewhere you're asking for trouble. And yes, it's fair for schools to make rules about what you wear and what you don't wear.
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Old 12-23-2004, 08:40 AM   #90
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar

Never did I meet Northeners who still to this day hate the south, or fly Union flags on their cars, or say the North will rise again and squash the South. It's fine to be proud of where you grew up, but it's another thing to make excuses for their mistakes.


I've lived in the North all my life and I don't even know what the Union flag looks like....

Now everybody go read Killer Angels by Michael Schaara if you haven't already Since I've never lived in the South, that book was helpful b/c it combined all of the issues surrounding the Civil War into one battle narrative. Great book!

To me, the Civil War was about the Southern lifestyle and the Northerners thinking it was wrong. In elementary school, they try to simplify it and make it into a pro- vs. anti-slavery conflict, but while that's important, it's a bit shallow (like saying the motivation behind WWII was pro- vs. anti-semitic.....just not true).

As for the dress, the whole thing is rediculous. Schools DO have the right to make their own rules. You can't just wear anything, do anything, or say anything at school and think you can get away w/ it b/c it's a free country. You don't have the right of entirely free speech in school just like we don't have it here (not complaining! just making a point).
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