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Old 10-22-2003, 07:42 AM   #1
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Get out of our Government God!

[Q]Keep God out of White House
Ryan Sabadow
Opinion Editor
October 22, 2003


The most dangerous force our country faces right now doesn't come from the threat of international terrorism. It comes from evangelical Christian fanatics connected to the White House, like Army Lt. Gen. William G. Boykin.

Last week, NBC ran a story showing Boykin in front of audiences at several evangelical churches across the country. Projected behind him was President George W. Bush. "Why is this man in the White House?" Boykin asked his audiences. "I tell you this morning, he's in the White House because God put him there for a time such as this."

This was after the recently appointed deputy undersecretary for intelligence also told the audiences the United States has been battling Satan during our war with Osama bin Laden and Saddam Hussein. He also said the reason terrorists have been attacking us is "because we're a Christian nation."

The three-star general in full dress uniform told the cheering crowds that when he was fighting against a Muslim militia leader in Somalia in 1993, he knew the Christian god was on his side. He had nothing to fear from Muslims because their god was an idol.

If images of radical hell-fire-and-brimstone religious fanatics who scream at us in the Free-Speech Area come to mind, you're not far off. The worst part is that this man isn't a sandwich-board-toting crazy. He has actual power, and he is a leading military figure in our ongoing wars against Muslim countries. He's not alone. Bush and his staff of evangelical Christians are slowly forcing their views on the rest of America and the world. America is shifting from democracy to theocracy.

Almost immediately after Sept. 11, President Bush said we were now in a "crusade." Even though he later retracted this remark and has waged a public relations campaign saying he respects Islam, you can't help but feel that Bush thinks he's on a mission from God.

According to Newsweek, prior to deploying troops to Iraq, Bush, the self-proclaimed "Born Again" evangelical Christian, told religious broadcasters "terrorists hate the fact that ... we can worship Almighty God the way we see fit," and that the United States needs to bring God's gift of liberty to "every human being in the world." Sounds like he forgot to say "whether they want it or not."

Bush's use of religion as a justification of policy isn't limited to war. Last week he declared Marriage Protection Week. This anti-homosexual statement coincides with the anniversary of the death of 21-year-old Matthew Shepard's death. You may remember him. He was the student from Laramie, Wyo. who was beaten to death for being gay (See Hallie Gorman's column "Protection hurts gays" in last week's Orion for more information).

This tasteless statement is just one more way Bush places his religious views on others, and it comes only months after a summer of Bush using biblical references to promote heterosexual marriage over homosexuals. Bush isn't just making statements - he also plans on using our tax dollars to fund his religious views.

According to Americans United for Separation of Church and State, the Bush administration plans on creating a "faith based" initiative that could funnel large sums of public funds to religious social services. Under the initiative, $30.5 million will go to grants given to social and religious groups. And it will give close to $20 billion to religious groups that claim to operate substance and mental health service programs. Religious groups could also compete for $8 billion in housing grants. If this initiative makes it through the legislature, it will be a direct slap in the face of the First Amendment, which says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion."

Since Sept. 11, Bush has been sounding more like a preacher giving a sermon than a president. The reverend C. Welton Gaddy, a Louisiana pastor and executive director of the Interfaith Alliance Foundation, told CNN that "This president is using general references ... and vocabulary that come straight out of a very particular religious tradition, which is evangelical Christianity." He went on to say that this doesn't reflect the broad range of religious views this country has.

Gaddy's right. When one religion is forced above others, it turns us away from being a free country. When guys like Bush, Boykin and Attorney General John Ashcroft use religion to determine policy decisions, the constitutional-based wall that has separated church and state since this country's inception starts to crumble. When the dust from that wall clears, we'll no longer be free.[/Q]http://www.orion-online.net/vnews/di.../3f95c469462ed
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Old 10-22-2003, 10:54 AM   #2
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Boykin in front of audiences at several evangelical churches
The press has now taken apon themselves to evaluate the speech that takes place inside a church. They are taking theological statements and making them political statements.
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Old 10-22-2003, 11:04 AM   #3
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Re: Get out of our Government God!

Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
[Q]Keep God out of White House
Ryan Sabadow
Opinion Editor
October 22, 2003


The most dangerous force our country faces right now doesn't come from the threat of international terrorism. It comes from evangelical Christian fanatics connected to the White House, like Army Lt. Gen. William G. Boykin.

Last week, NBC ran a story showing Boykin in front of audiences at several evangelical churches across the country. Projected behind him was President George W. Bush. "Why is this man in the White House?" Boykin asked his audiences. "I tell you this morning, he's in the White House because God put him there for a time such as this."

This was after the recently appointed deputy undersecretary for intelligence also told the audiences the United States has been battling Satan during our war with Osama bin Laden and Saddam Hussein. He also said the reason terrorists have been attacking us is "because we're a Christian nation."

The three-star general in full dress uniform told the cheering crowds that when he was fighting against a Muslim militia leader in Somalia in 1993, he knew the Christian god was on his side. He had nothing to fear from Muslims because their god was an idol.

If images of radical hell-fire-and-brimstone religious fanatics who scream at us in the Free-Speech Area come to mind, you're not far off. The worst part is that this man isn't a sandwich-board-toting crazy. He has actual power, and he is a leading military figure in our ongoing wars against Muslim countries. He's not alone. Bush and his staff of evangelical Christians are slowly forcing their views on the rest of America and the world. America is shifting from democracy to theocracy.

Almost immediately after Sept. 11, President Bush said we were now in a "crusade." Even though he later retracted this remark and has waged a public relations campaign saying he respects Islam, you can't help but feel that Bush thinks he's on a mission from God.

According to Newsweek, prior to deploying troops to Iraq, Bush, the self-proclaimed "Born Again" evangelical Christian, told religious broadcasters "terrorists hate the fact that ... we can worship Almighty God the way we see fit," and that the United States needs to bring God's gift of liberty to "every human being in the world." Sounds like he forgot to say "whether they want it or not."

Bush's use of religion as a justification of policy isn't limited to war. Last week he declared Marriage Protection Week. This anti-homosexual statement coincides with the anniversary of the death of 21-year-old Matthew Shepard's death. You may remember him. He was the student from Laramie, Wyo. who was beaten to death for being gay (See Hallie Gorman's column "Protection hurts gays" in last week's Orion for more information).

This tasteless statement is just one more way Bush places his religious views on others, and it comes only months after a summer of Bush using biblical references to promote heterosexual marriage over homosexuals. Bush isn't just making statements - he also plans on using our tax dollars to fund his religious views.

According to Americans United for Separation of Church and State, the Bush administration plans on creating a "faith based" initiative that could funnel large sums of public funds to religious social services. Under the initiative, $30.5 million will go to grants given to social and religious groups. And it will give close to $20 billion to religious groups that claim to operate substance and mental health service programs. Religious groups could also compete for $8 billion in housing grants. If this initiative makes it through the legislature, it will be a direct slap in the face of the First Amendment, which says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion."

Since Sept. 11, Bush has been sounding more like a preacher giving a sermon than a president. The reverend C. Welton Gaddy, a Louisiana pastor and executive director of the Interfaith Alliance Foundation, told CNN that "This president is using general references ... and vocabulary that come straight out of a very particular religious tradition, which is evangelical Christianity." He went on to say that this doesn't reflect the broad range of religious views this country has.

Gaddy's right. When one religion is forced above others, it turns us away from being a free country. When guys like Bush, Boykin and Attorney General John Ashcroft use religion to determine policy decisions, the constitutional-based wall that has separated church and state since this country's inception starts to crumble. When the dust from that wall clears, we'll no longer be free.[/Q]http://www.orion-online.net/vnews/di.../3f95c469462ed
LOL. Well, who cares if Bush thinks he's on a mission from God. He saved the oppressed Iraqis and, as David Kay's report shows conclusively, he found WMD's. President Bush is a hero.



*laughs heartily at the madness of it all*
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Old 10-22-2003, 11:10 AM   #4
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Overall I agree with this article. I think many of you know my stance on separation of church and state.

I don't think Bush realizes the irony in his comments. "terrorists hate the fact that ... we can worship Almighty God the way we see fit," how can you say this and then try and get "faith based" programs that are funded by our tax dollars.

"Last week, NBC ran a story showing Boykin in front of audiences at several evangelical churches across the country. Projected behind him was President George W. Bush. "Why is this man in the White House?" Boykin asked his audiences. "I tell you this morning, he's in the White House because God put him there for a time such as this.""

I'm sorry but the God I believe in would be ashamed. First of all no man's image should be projected upon the pulpit of a place for worship. Second of all I'm not sure God wants to take credit for placing this man in office. Regardless of what you think about Bush, no one should be claiming this.
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Old 10-22-2003, 11:11 AM   #5
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


The press has now taken apon themselves to evaluate the speech that takes place inside a church. They are taking theological statements and making them political statements.
When you are claiming one as being hand picked and placed by God, I think he made the statement political, not the press.
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Old 10-22-2003, 11:15 AM   #6
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Boykin's remarks are outrageous and totally inappropriate for a representative of a multicultural nation. The word "multicultural" has been abused to death, but it has a valid meaning, a nation and society of more than one culture. He certainly doesn't represent me and he shouldn't be trying to represent the U.S. with these remarks. I don't like them.
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Old 10-22-2003, 11:34 AM   #7
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
When you are claiming one as being hand picked and placed by God, I think he made the statement political, not the press.
"Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God." Romans 13:1

While we may not agree or understand why certain figures are in power, all authority comes from God.

I agree with you BVS and on a couple of points object to Boykin's presentation:

1. No pictures on the pulpit. Using projection screens is a popular trend among in churches today. I question the appropriateness of their use in my own church.

2. We cannot claim God as on "our side" for that suggests that God answers to us. We can only claim to be followers, seekers of God, or being on God's side.
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Old 10-22-2003, 11:36 AM   #8
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Boykin's remarks are outrageous and totally inappropriate for a representative of a multicultural nation. The word "multicultural" has been abused to death, but it has a valid meaning, a nation and society of more than one culture. He certainly doesn't represent me and he shouldn't be trying to represent the U.S. with these remarks. I don't like them.

Verte, the statements were made in a Christian church. These were not statements made at the Pentagon or on government property.

If you take the Bible as true, Islam and Christianity cannot both be true. Muslims say they worship the same God as Christians. Christians say Jesus Christ is God. Muslims do not. It would not be incorrect for a Christian to say Islam is a false religion.
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Old 10-22-2003, 11:44 AM   #9
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2. We cannot claim God as on "our side" for that suggests that God answers to us. We can only claim to be followers, seekers of God, or being on God's side.
Agreed. However, it's worth noting that the above statement seems to be contradictive to Romans 13:1.
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Old 10-22-2003, 11:47 AM   #10
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


"Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God." Romans 13:1

While we may not agree or understand why certain figures are in power, all authority comes from God.

Then we can use this logic to say God placed Hitler, Saddam, etc. in power?

How does this passage work for a government that asks you to submit to laws that are wrong in God's eyes?
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Old 10-22-2003, 11:52 AM   #11
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Verte, the statements were made in a Christian church. These were not statements made at the Pentagon or on government property.

If you take the Bible as true, Islam and Christianity cannot both be true. Muslims say they worship the same God as Christians. Christians say Jesus Christ is God. Muslims do not. It would not be incorrect for a Christian to say Islam is a false religion.
The statement bugs me because of who made it, not where. I guess a political personage is more or less under a radar gun, which most people are not. That's what makes this guy different than John Q. Churchman. I don't think anyone would give a damn if someone just said this in a church--I wouldn't; the fact that this guy is responsible for finding terrorists and such has upset the Moslem community. They feel like he is putting some sort of guilt thing on them because they are Moslem. It complicates things when you are a public personage with a public duty that involves people of the Islamic faith, no matter what you think of that faith. These statements have been in newspapers all over the world because of who made them, not where he made them. When political officials make similar statements about Christians in an Islamic country in a *mosque* we get upset, and justifiably so.
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Old 10-22-2003, 12:23 PM   #12
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Agreed. However, it's worth noting that the above statement seems to be contradictive to Romans 13:1.
How so?
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Old 10-22-2003, 12:36 PM   #13
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
Then we can use this logic to say God placed Hitler, Saddam, etc. in power?
Let's take a look at Scripture. There are a number of "evil" rulers throughout Scriptural history. Pharaoh is the clearest example of an evil ruler allowed to have power by God, done for an even greater purpose. We may not understand why Hitler and Saddam had power in our life times - but we don't se everything God sees.

Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
How does this passage work for a government that asks you to submit to laws that are wrong in God's eyes?
Excellent question. One answer is found with Daniel. He served under a foreign ruler. When faced with a law that contradicted God's law, he chose to disobey the king’s law. Same thing goes for Daniel's friends. Even though all were protected for following God's law over the king's law, Daniel's friends noted:

"If we are thrown into the blazing furnace, the God we serve is able to save us from it, and he will rescue us from your hand, O king. But even if he does not, we want you to know, O king, that we will not serve your gods or worship the image of gold you have set up." Daniel 3:17-18

The problem today is that some claim the government's law interferes with their religion, when in fact all they are after is an excuse from following the government's law. While this abuse does not invalidate the principle, it makes it more difficult for the earnest believe to follow both God's and the government's laws.
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Old 10-22-2003, 12:57 PM   #14
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Let's take a look at Scripture. There are a number of "evil" rulers throughout Scriptural history. Pharaoh is the clearest example of an evil ruler allowed to have power by God, done for an even greater purpose. We may not understand why Hitler and Saddam had power in our life times - but we don't se everything God sees.
Yes. But there's a big difference in "allowed" rather than placed.


Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader

Excellent question. One answer is found with Daniel. He served under a foreign ruler. When faced with a law that contradicted God's law, he chose to disobey the king’s law. Same thing goes for Daniel's friends. Even though all were protected for following God's law over the king's law, Daniel's friends noted:

"If we are thrown into the blazing furnace, the God we serve is able to save us from it, and he will rescue us from your hand, O king. But even if he does not, we want you to know, O king, that we will not serve your gods or worship the image of gold you have set up." Daniel 3:17-18

The problem today is that some claim the government's law interferes with their religion, when in fact all they are after is an excuse from following the government's law. While this abuse does not invalidate the principle, it makes it more difficult for the earnest believe to follow both God's and the government's laws.
I agree some abuse it, but I also believe there to be very legitimate examples as well.
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Old 10-22-2003, 03:58 PM   #15
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What drug is Bush and his friends on?

As far as I look at things, God is punishing this whole world... You get old farts like Bush saying America is the chosen one, but for some reason every thing is going down hill...hmmm...

Thats what these extremists (bushy and his friends, osama and sadam, etc.) get for claiming they are the chosens ones...
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