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Old 10-22-2003, 05:36 PM   #16
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Unimaginable crimes have been committed in the name of God. Does anyone remember the Crusades? Boykin sounds like he'd like to start them again. An atrocity!
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Old 10-22-2003, 05:49 PM   #17
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Does anyone understand the Crusades? Is this the tired knee-jerk comeback against Christians?

Boykins comments have nothing to do with the Crusades. He makes a theological point - one which most would rather not face. Theologically, both Islam and Christianity cannot be true.
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Old 10-22-2003, 06:25 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
Does anyone understand the Crusades? Is this the tired knee-jerk comeback against Christians?

Boykins comments have nothing to do with the Crusades. He makes a theological point - one which most would rather not face. Theologically, both Islam and Christianity cannot be true.
I didn't see a theological point in anything he said.

"Theologically both Islam and Christianity cannot be true."
This isn't exactly true. There are theologians that say both can. Although very few, but they do exist.

But for him to say they attack us because we're a Christian Nation and then stating when fighting Muslims he had no worries because their god is an idol, you're turning this into a "Christians versus the Muslims" battle. These wars are nation to nation not religion to religion. If he wants to turn it into something else then yes he's touching very dangersouly upon ideas of a "Crusade". This is not a "Christian" nation. The majority of citizens may claim a Christian religion, but this does not make the U.S. a Christian Nation. There are many countries that would qualify as a "Christian Nation" before the U.S. but they did not get attacked.
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Old 10-22-2003, 06:27 PM   #19
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NB, you and I had a great debate about this about a year ago LOL!!!!!
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Old 10-22-2003, 06:29 PM   #20
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NB...If you believe the General was incorrect in any of his statements...what would they be?
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Old 10-22-2003, 06:32 PM   #21
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Then we can use this logic to say God placed Hitler, Saddam, etc. in power?

I nearly got kicked out of a history class for thinking out loud (not saying I believe it) that God used Hitler to re-establish Israel. i thought the professor was going to rreach across the table and thrash me. I was young, and just throwing an idea out there. We were discussing God's active presence in history.
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Old 10-22-2003, 06:34 PM   #22
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1st....I do not agree with the General at all!!!!!
2nd I agree with NB the General has the right to his opinion and to express it in a church.
3rd....The general was not expressing it to his troops or preaching it at the pentagon in any form of official capacity.
4th...keep up the good discussion.
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Old 10-22-2003, 06:52 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
NB...If you believe the General was incorrect in any of his statements...what would they be?
Here are some statements which I would correct:

Quote:
"I tell you this morning, he's in the White House because God put him there for a time such as this."
Boykin has no basis to know why God placed GWB in the White House. Boykin is quoting from Esther, but even Mordecai qualified his statement by saying "And who knows but that you [Esther] have come to royal position for such a time as this?" Esther 4:14


Quote:
terrorists have been attacking us is "because we're a Christian nation."
Terrorists are more likely to attack our nation for supporting a Jewish nation than for being a "Christian nation". So this incorrect on two levels (i) the motivation of the terrorist and (ii) our status as a "Christian nation".

Quote:
the Christian god was on his side
I stated earlier, we can only claim to be followers, seekers of God, or being on God's side. We have no control over God nor does God, who is Sovereign, have to answer to anyone.
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Old 10-22-2003, 06:54 PM   #24
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Originally posted by Dreadsox


I nearly got kicked out of a history class for thinking out loud (not saying I believe it) that God used Hitler to re-establish Israel. i thought the professor was going to rreach across the table and thrash me. I was young, and just throwing an idea out there. We were discussing God's active presence in history.
To bad you got such heat for adding to the exchange of ideas.
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Old 10-22-2003, 06:56 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
Does anyone understand the Crusades? Is this the tired knee-jerk comeback against Christians?

Boykins comments have nothing to do with the Crusades. He makes a theological point - one which most would rather not face. Theologically, both Islam and Christianity cannot be true.
I don't think this is strictly theology, either. It involves the politics of the United States, which is not a Christian country, vs. some idiot fanatics who claim to be Moslems. It's not Christians vs. Moslems; it's decent people against terrorism. If it were just theology you could take the politics out and say, OK, I'm a Christian and thus I am not a Moslem, thus.......after all I don't want my priest on my case. In the context of the war on terrorism the politics complicates things. I don't care what people want to say in church. I think it makes a difference when the guy publicly represents the U.S. and it's in the newspapers in places like Iraq and all over the Internet, etc, etc. Prestige and rank carry responsibility.
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Old 10-22-2003, 07:06 PM   #26
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So, there must be self-censorship within the confines of a church? The guy would be tossed from his position if he made the statements in the Pentagon or other government forum. The press went searching for church transcripts (and yes, many churches keep transcripts of their sermons and speakers).
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Old 10-22-2003, 07:22 PM   #27
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OK, maybe it is the fault of the news media. There have indeed been investigations of this guy's remarks, presumably by press organizations, of statements he made in churches. I guess my point is that no one would care if he weren't a political official, and politics, in this day and age, is just plain vicious stuff that doesn't respect sanctity or decency.
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Old 10-22-2003, 10:48 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
He makes a theological point - one which most would rather not face. Theologically, both Islam and Christianity cannot be true.
That's fine, but Boykin is a deputy undersecretary for intelligence and an Army Lieutenant General, who, "in full dress uniform," made these comments. Since we're talking about running government like a business, do you want to know what a business would do to a man like Boykin? They'd fire his ass for abusing his professional position to push personal beliefs. What happens to policemen who wear their uniform in pornographic magazines? They get fired. What happens to people who use their work e-mail account to send off non-work related and controversial messages? They get fired. Boykin is perfectly free to believe whatever the hell he chooses, but it is not his job to make "a theological point." Leave that to ministers.

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Old 10-22-2003, 10:53 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
I nearly got kicked out of a history class for thinking out loud (not saying I believe it) that God used Hitler to re-establish Israel.
LOL...

A better way to put it, in a less theological context, is that none of the modern world would exist without World War II, because, without WWII, we would not have had the Cold War, and, without the Cold War, we would not have had the incentive to create all the progress that we have today. Indeed, even the Internet is a Cold War relic--a decentralized network intended to withstand nuclear war.

Even the most terrible things have unintended, but "positive" results.

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Old 10-22-2003, 11:20 PM   #30
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I have been waiting for you to appear in this thread!!!!
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