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Old 08-27-2002, 03:59 PM   #31
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Originally posted by LOVE MUSCLE
But they have outlined how Hussein carries out genocide to just about everyone he can touch and that he clearly defies the UN and has no consideration for human rights.
My concern is that Blair actually hasn't provided any evidence for this. He's also consistently refused to hold a debate in Commons on the issue and I believe that before a decision on whether to attack another country is taken, a full discussion with the people's representatives should take place. And as I said before, Iraq isn't the only country to violate UN resolutions, or to show a disregard for human rights, and yet there is no threat of an attack on other nations which do so.

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I'm not suggesting murder or genocide. What I mean is if Hussein uses human shields or disguises hospitals as military targets then how is that our fault if we bomb them?


To me, this argument seems rather like the suggestion that the reason over 500,000 children have died in Iraq in the last ten years, is not due to US and UK sanctions, but rather that Saddam Hussein witholds supplies from his own people. I disagree with that argument, I think perhaps the best response to it comes from John Pilger in his book The New Rulers of the World but basically there's no need for food or medical supplies to be witheld from people - those supplies simply are not reaching Iraq in the first place. For the argument about "human shields" - I believe if this was a tactic used in an attack on Iraq then the US should not do anything which would endanger the lives of people used as "human shields."

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So they can still be victim of suicide bombers?

I don't think a withdraw by Israel will stop the hatred of the Palestinians or other Arab Nations for that matter.
Well I'm sure we have different opinions on the solution to the conflict between Israel and Palestine. (Personally I believe complying with UN resolution 242 and getting out of the occupied territories would make Israel less likely to be the victim of suicide bombers, not more likely. It's not a complete solution, just the beginning of one, obviously.) But clearly we have different opinions on that issue, and I wasn't trying to start a debate on Israel/Palestine here.

What I actually meant to illustrate with that point was just that Iraq isn't the only country to defy a UN resolution, and yet is is the only country currently facing a massive military attack due to this.
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Old 09-01-2002, 08:48 PM   #32
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Hello,

I think J.W. Bush dosn't give too much about good or evil. There are interests in the Iraq, he tries to etablish a manageable government there for

a) Oil
b) more power in the mid east

Klaus
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Old 09-02-2002, 12:41 AM   #33
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Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees


My concern is that Blair actually hasn't provided any evidence for this. He's also consistently refused to hold a debate in Commons on the issue and I believe that before a decision on whether to attack another country is taken, a full discussion with the people's representatives should take place. And as I said before, Iraq isn't the only country to violate UN resolutions, or to show a disregard for human rights, and yet there is no threat of an attack on other nations which do so.



To me, this argument seems rather like the suggestion that the reason over 500,000 children have died in Iraq in the last ten years, is not due to US and UK sanctions, but rather that Saddam Hussein witholds supplies from his own people. I disagree with that argument, I think perhaps the best response to it comes from John Pilger in his book The New Rulers of the World but basically there's no need for food or medical supplies to be witheld from people - those supplies simply are not reaching Iraq in the first place. For the argument about "human shields" - I believe if this was a tactic used in an attack on Iraq then the US should not do anything which would endanger the lives of people used as "human shields."



Well I'm sure we have different opinions on the solution to the conflict between Israel and Palestine. (Personally I believe complying with UN resolution 242 and getting out of the occupied territories would make Israel less likely to be the victim of suicide bombers, not more likely. It's not a complete solution, just the beginning of one, obviously.) But clearly we have different opinions on that issue, and I wasn't trying to start a debate on Israel/Palestine here.

What I actually meant to illustrate with that point was just that Iraq isn't the only country to defy a UN resolution, and yet is is the only country currently facing a massive military attack due to this. [/B]


It's ignorant to think that getting out of the occupied territories will partly alleviate the problem. Most of the rhetoric out of the Arab world towards Israel points to the contrary. They don't recognize the right of Israel to exist in the first place! They want the zionists to be forced into the sea, not just to leave that area. Look at the history of that region and the translation of the words of Hamas and other groups in that area responsible for these bombings.

Here are some quotes from their (Hamas) charter:

From Article Thirteen:
"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."

From Article Twenty-Eight:
"The Zionist invasion is a vicious invasion. It does not refrain from resorting to all methods, using all evil and contemptible ways to achieve its end. It relies greatly in its infiltration and espionage operations on the secret organizations it gave rise to, such as the Freemasons, The Rotary and Lions clubs, and other sabotage groups. All these organizations, whether secret or open, work in the interest of Zionism and according to its instructions. They aim at undermining societies, destroying values, corrupting consciences, deteriorating character and annihilating Islam. It is behind the drug trade and alcoholism in all its kinds so as to facilitate its control and expansion.

Arab countries surrounding Israel are asked to open their borders before the fighters from among the Arab and Islamic nations so that they could consolidate their efforts with those of their Moslem brethren in Palestine.

As for the other Arab and Islamic countries, they are asked to facilitate the movement of the fighters from and to it, and this is the least thing they could do.

We should not forget to remind every Moslem that when the Jews conquered the Holy City in 1967, they stood on the threshold of the Aqsa Mosque and proclaimed that "Mohammed is dead, and his descendants are all women.""

From Article Thirty-Two:
"World Zionism, together with imperialistic powers, try through a studied plan and an intelligent strategy to remove one Arab state after another from the circle of struggle against Zionism, in order to have it finally face the Palestinian people only. Egypt was, to a great extent, removed from the circle of the struggle, through the treacherous Camp David Agreement. They are trying to draw other Arab countries into similar agreements and to bring them outside the circle of struggle.

The Islamic Resistance Movement calls on Arab and Islamic nations to take up the line of serious and persevering action to prevent the success of this horrendous plan, to warn the people of the danger eminating from leaving the circle of struggle against Zionism. Today it is Palestine, tomorrow it will be one country or another. The Zionist plan is limitless. After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying.
Israel, Judaism and Jews challenge Islam and the Moslem people. "May the cowards never sleep.""

Israel takes up less than 1% of the Middle East. Does anyone here think that they (Jews) are bent on world domination?

Hussein is responsible for the plight of his people, not us. All he has to do is allow weapons inspectors into his country. Why aren't you arguing that he is at fault because he won't give into this simple demand? It's because you're brainwashed with the typical ultra left wing arguement that the US should be blamed first before EVEN a psychotic dictator like Hussein. Are you even aware that Iraq can export oil in exchange for aid through a U.N. mandate. They are able to get almost 8 billion in aid annually. Iraq takes advantage of less than half of this. He spends billions building new mosques in his honor on every birthday, but the liberals NEVER talk about that. Boats have been repeatedly caught coming from Iraq with UN food supplies, which they are trying to sell for currency to fund his regime, and the liberals remain silent. The facts listed below from UN reports get released and the liberals still remain silent.
Don't you realize that keeping the citizens poor and uneducated as possible is to his benefit? He, like Castro, can scapegoat the U.S. as the responsible party for their plight because he controls all aspects of the media. But, by far, his most powerful weapon is the proliferation of your arguement and the increasingly popular "blame America first" movement.

See the following articles:

http://www.rferl.org/nca/features/19...818135320.html

http://www.usembassy-israel.org.il/p...y/me0126a.html

"In a stinging letter issued recently, the United Nations has pointed out the extent of Saddam Hussein's callous disregard for the welfare of his own people.
Baghdad has inexplicably delayed ordering sufficient supplies for health, education, water, sanitation and the oil sector under the UN-administered Oil-for-Food program. This program allows Iraq to sell oil in order to purchase supplies for the Iraqi people, to rebuild critical infrastructure and to ensure the continued production of oil. Using the considerable funds in this program, Iraq orders supplies every six months, and submits these orders to the UN for approval.

In the most recently completed six-month phase of the program (June to December, 2000), Saddam Hussein's dereliction in providing for the Iraqi people and the nation's economy is laid bare.

During this period, US$7.8 billion were available to Iraq for purchases during this period, yet Iraq submitted purchase applications worth only US$4.26 billion - barely 54 percent of the amount available for purchases to help the humanitarian needs of the Iraqi people.

In key sectors of the Iraqi economy, Saddam's regime's disregard for the welfare of the Iraqi people is made plain:

-- Despite the international concern for the health and nutritional needs of the Iraqi people, the total value of applications received in the health sector was only US$83.6 million. US$624.7 million are allocated by the UN for the Iraqi health sector, meaning that Saddam Hussein spent only 13 percent of funds available for health supplies it could have purchased

-- Iraq submitted only US$21.5 million in applications for educational supplies, barely six percent of the US$351.5 allocated for this purpose.

-- Iraq submitted only US$184.7 million in water and sanitation applications, out of US$551.1 million available.

-- Iraq requested only US$22.7 million in applications for spare parts and equipment for the oil sector, just three percent of the US$600 million allotted.

More than US$4 billion sit in a United Nations escrow account, available to the Iraqi government for the purchase of the humanitarian supplies the Iraqi people so desperately need, and which the Iraqi regime claims it cannot obtain due to economic sanctions.

Yet the list goes on of Saddam's maneuvers that continue to mire the Iraqi people in misery.

In December 2000, Iraq shut off and then slowed down its oil exports in an attempt to extort control of oil revenues. According to the United Nations, as of January 10, 2001, Iraq's reduced exports had already amounted to lost revenue totaling US$1.4 billion dollars.

Baghdad's recent insistence on selling its oil in Euros rather than US dollars, which is the worldwide industry standard, will likely result in Iraq losing US$250 to US$300 million yearly in conversion fees and lost interest.

Many countries in the world have made concessions and gestures aimed at reducing Iraq's international isolation. Saddam Hussein's inaction in the past six months shows that he cares little for these gestures, and cares even less for the Iraqi people. As long as Saddam Hussein blocks United Nations efforts to provide needed assistance to the Iraqi people and economy, he shows that his regime will continue to pose a threat to the region and remains the primary cause of suffering in Iraq."
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Old 09-02-2002, 12:56 PM   #34
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Originally posted by Klaus
Hello,

I think J.W. Bush dosn't give too much about good or evil. There are interests in the Iraq, he tries to etablish a manageable government there for

a) Oil
b) more power in the mid east

Klaus
Klaus,

Though I disagree with you, I've no need to argue. However, his name is G.W. Bush not J.W.

Thanks, and again welcome aboard

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Old 09-02-2002, 01:23 PM   #35
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Originally posted by z edge


Klaus,

Though I disagree with you, I've no need to argue. However, his name is G.W. Bush not J.W.

Thanks, and again welcome aboard

Hello z edge,

At least we argree in one point - G.W. is correct and it's what i wanted to type (i'm not sure about the meaning of that smiley but it looks like it blushes because of a stupid mistake)

Klaus
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Old 09-02-2002, 04:58 PM   #36
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Originally posted by Klaus


Hello z edge,

At least we argree in one point - G.W. is correct and it's what i wanted to type (i'm not sure about the meaning of that smiley but it looks like it blushes because of a stupid mistake)

Klaus
LOL at your smilie Klaus, I think it is the embarassed one. Me I usually use the one and everybody knows why!

Thanks for your correction!

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Old 09-04-2002, 06:02 AM   #37
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Originally posted by z edge


Klaus,

Though I disagree with you, I've no need to argue. However, his name is G.W. Bush not J.W.

Thanks, and again welcome aboard

We don´t need to argue, but I would like you to answer my question.
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Old 09-05-2002, 06:49 PM   #38
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I do have a question, z edge.
I am sorry I did not see your question until now, um you were on my Ignore list Sorry

Quote:
. I must say that I am surprised by, imho, your shameless blasphemy.
Well, you may want me to entertain your question but I will not even go any further with this until you retract your accusation of my "Shameless Blasphemy"

Oh, and take this:

[IMG]www.persian-cats.com/gallery/aaron.jpg[/IMG]

EDIT: LOL, I can't even post pics of a persian cat anymore

GREAT
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Old 09-06-2002, 09:21 AM   #39
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I am sorry I did not see your question until now, um you were on my Ignore list Sorry

Well, you may want me to entertain your question but I will not even go any further with this until you retract your accusation of my "Shameless Blasphemy"

Oh, and take this:

Have you ever believed that the sacrifice of the few for the good of the many is a nobel cause? Look to the example of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ in giving his life for our Salvation.

No way, it wasn´t a general accusation, I didn´t write imho for nothing. In my humble opinion see above was a shameless blasphemy, and if you think to be as Christian as I think you are, it should be very very easy to see my point of view.

It should be so easy, z edge, to take a step down. What is going on in your mind? Do you really think it is noble when people die (- You? Of all people? You have served your country, so maybe you have seen people dying, like me, and you think it´s noble when innocent civilians die? Wow -great attitude - I can see you never skipped through The Naked And The Dead), and do you really think you can compare the death of any man to the death of Jesus Christ? It should be so easy to say "Yes, o.k., maybe I exaggerated a little".

You don´t need to entertain me, thank you, I got waaaaay better bands for that. I just wanted an answer, not an armed conflict.

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Old 09-06-2002, 10:44 AM   #40
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German Leader's Warning: War Plan Is a Huge Mistake
Thu Sep 5, 4:03 PM ET
By STEVEN ERLANGER The New York Times

This interview is the second of a series in which national and world figures reflect on the terrorist attacks and their effect on a year of public life and policy.



HANOVER, Germany, Sept. 1 Gerhard Schröder, the German chancellor, believes that the Bush administration is making a terrible mistake in planning a war against Iraq, and he is not afraid to say so.

A new war in the Middle East, he says bluntly, would put at risk all that has been gained so far in the unfinished battle against Al Qaeda.

The arguments against a war with Iraq are so strong, he said, that he would oppose one even if the Security Council approved.

After the Sept. 11 attacks, Germany offered "unconditional solidarity" and support to the United States as "a self-evident duty, as a friend," he said in an interview at his home here. Fighting Iraq, which he regards as entirely separate from fighting Al Qaeda, could shatter that unity.

"I think it would be a big mistake if this feeling of needing one another should be destroyed by excessively unilateral actions," he said.

Consultation is important, he said, "but consultation cannot mean that I get a phone call two hours in advance only to be told, `We're going in.' "

"Consultation among grown-up nations has to mean not just consultation about the how and the when, but also about the whether," he said.

Mr. Schröder is in the midst of a fierce election campaign that some say has influenced his stand, a suggestion he denied. "We will win in Germany, and then I will have to stick by this decision, and I know what that means," the chancellor, a Social Democrat, said.

His stand on Iraq is a departure for Germany, traditionally a staunch ally at moments of crisis. Many Germans feel indebted to the United States for helping shape modern Germany and are uneasy about charting an independent course on issues of such gravity.

Mr. Schröder made time in his garden to reflect on the events of Sept. 11, their impact on America's relations with its allies and the talk of war with Iraq.

Recalling Sept. 11, he praised President Bush ( news - web sites) and Secretary of State Colin L. Powell for their skill in quickly rallying an international coalition against terror. With the terrorist strikes, he said, the world understood it was facing "a privatized form of war, waged by terrorist organizations," that must be fought "using appropriate means, including military means."

Informal, sometimes smoking a cigar, Mr. Schröder emphasized Germany's close ties to the United States and its people. He and his wife, Doris, were greatly moved by the Sept. 11 attacks. His wife talks of living in America again, but Mr. Schröder has his eyes set first on the Sept. 22 election.

His stance on Iraq has appealed to those Germans who oppose war and are skeptical of Bush administration assertions that Iraq must be overthrown, not simply contained.

Senior officials in Washington are angry at his presumption that the American debate over Iraq is finished and his failure to give his closest ally the benefit of the doubt. They believe he is damaging the alliance for electoral advantage and is running against America.

But Mr. Schröder believes that his policy is prudent and coherent. He insists that the goal must be to pressure Saddam Hussein ( news - web sites) to allow weapons inspectors unconditional access not to go to war regardless to overthrow Mr. Hussein, as Vice President Dick Cheney ( news - web sites) has suggested.

Mr. Schröder threw up his hands. "How can you exert pressure on someone by saying to them, `Even if you accede to our demands, we will destroy you'?" he asked. "I think that was a change of strategy in the United States whatever the explanation may be a change that made things difficult for others, including ourselves."

Referring to Mr. Cheney, Mr. Schröder said: "The problem is that he has or seems to have committed himself so strongly that it is hard to imagine how he can climb down. And that is the real problem, that not only I have, but that all of us in Europe have."

Mr. Schröder emphasized that he had put his own job on the line when he pushed his Social Democratic and Green coalition to vote for German deployment of troops in the war against Al Qaeda, and said it was his duty to do so. Germany, he noted, has some 10,000 troops serving abroad, second only to the United States, in Afghanistan ( news - web sites), the Middle East and the Balkans so "no one can criticize us for lacking international solidarity."

But Iraq is different, he insists, and he said he resented finding out first from the media about the Cheney speech. Because he was prepared to call a vote of confidence on Afghanistan, he said, "it is just not good enough if I learn from the American press about a speech which clearly states, `We are going to do it, no matter what the world or our allies think.' That is no way to treat others."

Mr. Schröder said he had seen no new evidence indicating that the military danger from Iraq had increased, and so questions the administration's urgency. He says he believes "no one has a really clear idea of the political order that would follow in the Middle East" or of the effects of a war on the stability of moderate Arab states, or the cohesion of the antiterror coalition. There has been little discussion, he says, of the economic consequences, in particular the price of oil, for the rest of the world.

The war against Osama bin Laden ( news - web sites) is not finished, he said. "My concern," he said, "is that we have not even begun to achieve in Afghanistan anything that could be called nation-building."

Germany cares what resolutions the United Nations ( news - web sites) adopts, Mr. Schröder said. But the harm to the coalition, the lack of a concept for a new Middle East and the need to succeed in Afghanistan trump everything else for him. "These arguments," he said, "make me say, `Hands off' " especially, he added, since the evidence of an increased threat from Iraq "appears to be highly dubious."

Sept. 11 made Americans more determined on the issue of terrorism, he said, but did not change the American democracy or the ability to conduct a strong debate on issues like Iraq.

Sept. 11 had an enormous impact on the Germans, too, he said. "The large demonstration in Berlin by 200,000 or 300,000 people was in fact a spontaneous expression of sympathy and solidarity. And I also experienced it much closer to home if I may be permitted to say so since my wife had once lived not far away, on the Upper West Side."

New York also has special meaning to the world as a place of refuge for those forced to leave their own country, Mr. Schröder said, adding: "New York is thus a symbol of asylum. This was very much the case during the Nazi period in Germany, and this gives New York a very special importance."

He knows Washington is angry with him, but he thinks officials misunderstand what real friends he and Germany remain. "What is the duty of a friend in such a situation?" he asked. "The duty of friends is not just to agree with everything, but to say, `We disagree on this point.' That is what I believe to be the duty of friends in relations between individuals, just as it is in relations between nations, if one happens to disagree. And on this point" Iraq "we disagree, or I disagree."

He says he did what he thought was right when he put his job on the line to send troops to Afghanistan, "and now I am again doing what I think to be right," he said. "It is something that has to be done, and one has to have the strength to do it if one holds this office."
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