germany calls us efforts "adventurism" - Page 2 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 08-25-2002, 04:34 AM   #16
ONE
love, blood, life
 
FizzingWhizzbees's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: the choirgirl hotel
Posts: 12,614
Local Time: 12:29 AM
I can understand why people feel apprehensive about the idea of America attacking Iraq, especially without any sort of international support. As everyone knows, the UK is basically the only country which has more or less said it will support American military action regardless and I find that frightening. Primarily I find it frightening that our Prime Minister (and a Labour Party PM for that matter) is willing to consider supporting a war which could kill tens of thousands of innocent people, but as Lilly said, it's frightening to think of possible retaliation if this attack does go ahead. Earlier this year Blair started talking about a dossier of evidence against Saddam Hussein which he would provide evidence to the public from if the UK does support attacking Iraq. So far we've seen NO evidence. I watch the news numerous times everyday, I read the newspapers and I have yet to see one scrap of reliable evidence provided by my own government as to why exactly we should support America attacking Iraq.

Have Bush and other officials in his administration considered the possibility that there may be good reason that other countries hvae refused to support an attack against Iraq? Because it seems to me that the Bush administration has stated it will go ahead with an attack regardless of the wishes of other countries. Perhaps other countries aren't just "cowardly" or "a bunch of liberals" etc - they have genuine concerns about the outcome of attacking Iraq and they're not willing to involve themself in such action.
__________________

__________________
FizzingWhizzbees is offline  
Old 08-25-2002, 04:39 AM   #17
ONE
love, blood, life
 
FizzingWhizzbees's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: the choirgirl hotel
Posts: 12,614
Local Time: 12:29 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by TylerDurden

I was watching the Fox News Chnl the other day (its exactly the same in Australia as the US, with the exception of a couple of 'local' hours a day) and its unbelievable. Biggest load of bullshit I ever saw. That is not a news channel. Does Rumsfeld own it?

lol, I hear ya! We get Fox News over here (UK) too and I don't think I've ever seen such biased television. (Sorry to anyone who's a big fan of Fox News) I was sort of listening to the channel without watchingthe other day, and I heard someone practically yelling about how Canada and France are cowards because they won't support attacking Iraq, and I thought it was some person they were interviewing. Then I turned round and it was actually the PRESENTER!

:::intends to stick to BBC News 24 or CNN in the future:::
__________________

__________________
FizzingWhizzbees is offline  
Old 08-25-2002, 10:40 AM   #18
Rock n' Roll Doggie
ALL ACCESS
 
speedracer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: MD
Posts: 7,573
Local Time: 07:29 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by TylerDurden


No, no we don't because the US (Bush and co) are doing a terrible terrible job in 'selling' the idea. Spitting out good soundbites for the 6 o'clock news isn't enough.

If Iraq has stuff (WMD's), and is definetaly a threat, then the worlds support for the US would double, triple, but the US just isn't making a good case for it.

I was watching the Fox News Chnl the other day (its exactly the same in Australia as the US, with the exception of a couple of 'local' hours a day) and its unbelievable. Biggest load of bullshit I ever saw. That is not a news channel. Does Rumsfeld own it?

Anyway, if the US can put their case for war out on the table, then I think they'll get the support of people like me, and maybe the support of some other countries. Don't underestimate how important it will be to get that support either (not mine, George doesn't care for mine, bastard) but other nations. Going it alone, or just with the support of Israel, UK and Australia (which is pretty much all you've got) would be a big mistake for the US.

But they are not making a case at all.
I'd like to see the UN weapons inspectors go back into Iraq and get kicked out/denied access/generally harassed again; I have very little doubt that this would happen if the weapons inspectors did resume their job. This would certainly solidify the allegations that Iraq is developing WMDs.

And if the weapons inspectors are allowed total access but don't uncover Saddam's WMD programs, then I guess we just have to leave him alone.
__________________
speedracer is offline  
Old 08-25-2002, 12:52 PM   #19
The Fly
 
Hi Bias's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Southwest, U S
Posts: 49
Local Time: 12:29 AM
Re: germany calls us efforts "adventurism"

Quote:
Originally posted by Lilly


i've been reflecting today over the latest political developments from the past few weeks. how america is pushing itself farther into countries without reason nor explaining it to its own public. whether it be accusations of prisoner abuse or corporate scandals, america is heading toward some serious reconstruction. my generation doesn't need a vietnam.
Lilly,

It is healthy and reasonable to be skeptical.
__________________
Hi Bias is offline  
Old 08-25-2002, 06:13 PM   #20
Banned
 
LOVE MUSCLE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: my lovenest / in bed with Larry, Bono, Larry, :heart: Adam, Larry, Edge, *swoon* kisses and THUD !!!
Posts: 986
Local Time: 07:29 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees


Have Bush and other officials in his administration considered the possibility that there may be good reason that other countries hvae refused to support an attack against Iraq? Because it seems to me that the Bush administration has stated it will go ahead with an attack regardless of the wishes of other countries. Perhaps other countries aren't just "cowardly" or "a bunch of liberals" etc - they have genuine concerns about the outcome of attacking Iraq and they're not willing to involve themself in such action.
Will you still hold this same opinion if we were to leave Iraq alone and they start lobbing nuclear missles into your backyard?

Remember, they have already committed mass-murder against their own people and theri neighbors.

I think it is a fallacy when other nations say they are "against" attacking Iraq. Should we not attack him, then they won't have gone on record in support of us.
__________________
LOVE MUSCLE is offline  
Old 08-25-2002, 06:39 PM   #21
ONE
love, blood, life
 
FizzingWhizzbees's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: the choirgirl hotel
Posts: 12,614
Local Time: 12:29 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by LOVE MUSCLE
Will you still hold this same opinion if we were to leave Iraq alone and they start lobbing nuclear missles into your backyard?
I haven't seen evidence that Iraq has any nuclear missiles. I certainly haven't seen evidence that they plan to launch them into my backyard. Given that, I don't believe risking the lives of tens of thousands of innnocent Iraqi citizens is justifiable.
I know many people argue that the US government has that evidence, or that Iraq's actions in the past mean that it must have nuclear weapons today, but in my view, those subjective opinions don't justify a war which is certain to kill thousands of innocent people.
__________________
FizzingWhizzbees is offline  
Old 08-25-2002, 07:27 PM   #22
Banned
 
LOVE MUSCLE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: my lovenest / in bed with Larry, Bono, Larry, :heart: Adam, Larry, Edge, *swoon* kisses and THUD !!!
Posts: 986
Local Time: 07:29 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees


I haven't seen evidence that Iraq has any nuclear missiles. I certainly haven't seen evidence that they plan to launch them into my backyard.
Really? I received my letter from Saddamn yesterday that clearly stated he intends to bomb you, me, and everyone else. I'm sure you will get your letter tomorrow.

Okay I am a smart-ass as you know, but do you really think he intends to make this evidence available to everyone to see?

Isn't the fact that he kicked out the UN inspectors 5 years ago a hint of his activity????


Quote:
Given that, I don't believe risking the lives of tens of thousands of innnocent Iraqi citizens is justifiable.
But sweetheart, it is not the poor Iraqis that are the only ones at risk here!

However, since he likes to gas them and execute them while continually oppressing them what is the difference?

Have you ever believed that the sacrifice of the few for the good of the many is a nobel cause? Look to the example of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ in giving his life for our Salvation.

Quote:
I know many people argue that the US government has that evidence, or that Iraq's actions in the past mean that it must have nuclear weapons today, but in my view, those subjective opinions don't justify a war which is certain to kill thousands of innocent people.
Sorry, but again it is inaction by you and me that will be the end of hundreds of thousands vs. your "thousands"

And if I remember correctly, the conditions of the cease-fire which he agreed to have been broken for the last 5 years so it is up to the United Nations (which really means the United States anyway) to enforce this law.

Peace
__________________
LOVE MUSCLE is offline  
Old 08-25-2002, 07:42 PM   #23
ONE
love, blood, life
 
FizzingWhizzbees's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: the choirgirl hotel
Posts: 12,614
Local Time: 12:29 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by LOVE MUSCLE
Okay I am a smart-ass as you know, but do you really think he intends to make this evidence available to everyone to see?


But leaders like Bush and Blair have claimed they have evidence against Saddam Hussein and yet have been consistently unwilling to give any indication of what this evidence is. Something which especially concerns me is that there has been no debate on a possible attack on Iraq in the House of Commons, and Blair has actually said he would be likely to support an attack without having any sort of debate in Commons.

Quote:
Have you ever believed that the sacrifice of the few for the good of the many is a nobel cause? Look to the example of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ in giving his life for our Salvation.


I know basically nothing about Christianity (although if anyone wants to educate me then go right ahead) so I perhaps shouldn't even reply to this, but surely a country, or individual people don't have the right to "sacrifice" other people for a cause, no matter how nobel they might believe it to be.


Quote:
And if I remember correctly, the conditions of the cease-fire which he agreed to have been broken for the last 5 years so it is up to the United Nations (which really means the United States anyway) to enforce this law.


But if the US really did intend to enfore UN resolutions then why not start with resolution 242 which requires Israeli withdrawal from the Palestinian territories it occupies? Iraq isn't the only state which violates UN resolutions.
__________________
FizzingWhizzbees is offline  
Old 08-25-2002, 07:48 PM   #24
Banned
 
pinkfloyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: SILVER LINE
Posts: 901
Local Time: 07:29 PM
bomb z edge now !

i find it , amusing , really , z edge shows " peace sign " in the end of his hateful massages against Iraq , Muslims . Other countries don't want to get into this " WAR against terrorism " shit , cause they don't need to , USA have to , cause someone slapped them in face ( WTC attacks ) while they were taking care of financial business ( Israel - utopia country which impossible exist without United States , Oil ---> races against Asia & russia in this question , oh year getting fake democracy in countries where interests are in need , bombing , bombing , bombing ... gee i like that ... very fucking cool ... truth is : everybody is just trying to care about their own asses , no more , no less .



PEACE ON EARTH .
__________________
pinkfloyd is offline  
Old 08-25-2002, 07:55 PM   #25
Banned
 
LOVE MUSCLE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: my lovenest / in bed with Larry, Bono, Larry, :heart: Adam, Larry, Edge, *swoon* kisses and THUD !!!
Posts: 986
Local Time: 07:29 PM
Re: bomb z edge now !

Quote:
Originally posted by pinkfloyd
i find it , amusing , really , z edge shows " peace sign " in the end of his hateful massages against Iraq , Muslims . Other countries don't want to get into this " WAR against terrorism " shit , cause they don't need to , USA have to , cause someone slapped them in face ( WTC attacks ) while they were taking care of financial business ( Israel - utopia country which impossible exist without United States , Oil ---> races against Asia & russia in this question , oh year getting fake democracy in countries where interests are in need , bombing , bombing , bombing ... gee i like that ... very fucking cool ... truth is : everybody is just trying to care about their own asses , no more , no less .



PEACE ON EARTH .
I too find that odd, until I look back and realize that I used a wave --> smilie next to the opposite type of smilie---> and then the word PEACE which you also used a form of.



XOXOXO
__________________
LOVE MUSCLE is offline  
Old 08-25-2002, 08:07 PM   #26
Banned
 
LOVE MUSCLE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: my lovenest / in bed with Larry, Bono, Larry, :heart: Adam, Larry, Edge, *swoon* kisses and THUD !!!
Posts: 986
Local Time: 07:29 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees


But leaders like Bush and Blair have claimed they have evidence against Saddam Hussein and yet have been consistently unwilling to give any indication of what this evidence is. Something which especially concerns me is that there has been no debate on a possible attack on Iraq in the House of Commons, and Blair has actually said he would be likely to support an attack without having any sort of debate in Commons.[/B]
But they have outlined how Hussein carries out genocide to just about everyone he can touch and that he clearly defies the UN and has no consideration for human rights.


Quote:
I know basically nothing about Christianity (although if anyone wants to educate me then go right ahead) so I perhaps shouldn't even reply to this, but surely a country, or individual people don't have the right to "sacrifice" other people for a cause, no matter how nobel they might believe it to be.
I'm not suggesting murder or genocide. What I mean is if Hussein uses human shields or disguises hospitals as military targets then how is that our fault if we bomb them?

Quote:
But if the US really did intend to enfore UN resolutions then why not start with resolution 242 which requires Israeli withdrawal from the Palestinian territories it occupies? Iraq isn't the only state which violates UN resolutions.
So they can still be victim of suicide bombers?

I don't think a withdraw by Israel will stop the hatred of the Palestinians or other Arab Nations for that matter.
__________________
LOVE MUSCLE is offline  
Old 08-25-2002, 11:35 PM   #27
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
U2Bama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Gulf Coast State of Mine
Posts: 3,405
Local Time: 06:29 PM
Re: bomb z edge now !

Quote:
Originally posted by pinkfloyd
z edge shows " peace sign " in the end of his hateful massages against Iraq , Muslims .
I don't see anything "hateful" against Iraq in z edge's post, maybe some hatred towards Saddam Hussein; and nowhere do I say anything hateful against Muslims in general.

~U2Alabama
__________________
U2Bama is offline  
Old 08-26-2002, 01:38 AM   #28
Refugee
 
Danospano's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 1,415
Local Time: 07:29 PM
The battle for world domination. The USA wants it, Iraq wants it, Germany wants it. We all want it.

You know, I've been hearing a lot of people use the excuse that we should invade Iraq, because Saddam Hussein is a mad man, ya ya ya (and then everyone breaks into a hoo-ray). I honestly agree that he isn't the most moral man living today, but I know that the grand ole' USA's embargos have lead to the deaths of over 400,000 Iraqi's. That's not chump-change. That's a significant statistic. It's also a different subject, so I won't stick with it.

We need proof. Hard core proof, before we kill another few thousand civilians in the name of democracy. If the proof is there, why not show it? Since the US government has failed to present adequate proof, I would tend to believe that there isn't any. They've had plenty of time to send propaganda to all the media outlets, meaning that either A) They truly fear that leaking the proof will jeopardize lives (yeah, right!), or B)There is no proof and that's that.
__________________
Danospano is offline  
Old 08-26-2002, 03:19 AM   #29
War Child
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 940
Local Time: 12:29 AM
There's a guy who I kinda 'trust' when I hear him talking all things Middle East, a guy called Richard Butler who was the head of UN Weapons Inspections in Iraq from the Gulf War till they were kicked out (98?) Anyway, he's Australian so he's often used on tv here to commentate on whatever in the middle east, and I think he certainly knows what he's talking about.

I can't track down a larger, more 'in depth' article, even though Ive read a few from him, but this gives you an idea of where he stands. He's also commented before about where he thinks Iraq is at with their weapons, and he doesn't believe they are much of a threat at the moment, maybe in 5 years, but he doubts they'd ever actually do anything. Saddam is not that stupid. Unless they were cornered...
I'll try and find more from him, and ignore the other Aussie political shit in this article.

Remember this is the guy who headed up the UN Inspections Team.

------------------------------------------------------------
Butler hits out at govt over Iraq
6:30 AM August 24

Former United Nations weapons inspector in Iraq Richard Butler lashed out at the Australian government's handling of the threat of war with Iraq.

He said the federal government would be "trashing our moral values" by giving unequivocal support to United States President George W Bush's desire for war with Iraq.

Mr Butler said while Foreign Minister Alexander Downer "probably regretted" seeming keen to go to war alongside Mr Bush, Mr Downer's remarks on a trip to Washington last month had shown "the character of the government we have".

"It's the same in respect of the Iraq war just as Robert Menzies did 40 years ago when he lied to the Australian parliament about us being invited to join in the Vietnam war," he said.

Mr Butler made the comments at a Sydney corporate luncheon panel discussion titled "September 11, 12 months on the Australian perspective".

He had earlier warned guests, saying: "I'm now going to lob a hand grenade into the room."

Mr Butler said the government's use of crises such as the Tampa refugee issue for political gain raised serious questions.

"I think they raise very serious issues of the abuse of public life in this country," he said.

Mr Butler said "there were very good reasons why Saddam Hussein should not be president of Iraq".

However, he said the reasons for attacking Iraq needed to be supported by evidence and the rest of the world had to be persuaded it was not just because America wanted it.

"What is emerging is an interpretation in Washington that says: `We will do whatever we want, anytime, anywhere, all under the rubric of terrorism whether it is provable or not'," Mr Butler said.

"I'm not suggesting terrorism is OK," he added.

"To Iraq I'm the `Butcher of Baghdad'.

"I persecuted those people for their weapons of mass destruction.

"There is a serious job to be done in Iraq but we must do what we do for the right reasons."
__________________
TylerDurden is offline  
Old 08-27-2002, 01:58 PM   #30
Rock n' Roll Doggie
ALL ACCESS
 
hiphop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: in the jungle
Posts: 7,410
Local Time: 02:29 AM
I do have a question, z edge.
I ask this question to you because of the job you do, because I figure you may know more than me about stategy.

If Saddam Hussein had nuclear weapons, donīt you think he would tell? I do think so, because he would use those weapons as a threat. Even if the missiles donīt go long distance enough to reach the U.S., but he could threaten Israel (donīt they have the nuclear bomb?), or also put a bomb on a plane or whatever. I think strategically he would make sure that the world knows. Many (stupid leaders of) countries are proud of their nuclear arsenal, and as soon as achieved, have blurted it out to all the world. Or am I misinformed and nuclear weapons were always a big secret to everyone until a state couldnīt hide them no more?

Being a roman catholic, I disagree with you if you believe that the sacrifice of a few for the good of the many is a noble cause. Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ has not died the same way like innocent civilians would die, and your F117 are not bringing salvation. I must say that I am surprised by, imho, your shameless blasphemy. It doesnīt really hurt my christian feelings, it only makes me feel uncomfortable that my religion is used by you to support your argument.

Quote:
Originally posted by LOVE MUSCLE


Really? I received my letter from Saddamn yesterday that clearly stated he intends to bomb you, me, and everyone else. I'm sure you will get your letter tomorrow.

Okay I am a smart-ass as you know, but do you really think he intends to make this evidence available to everyone to see?

Isn't the fact that he kicked out the UN inspectors 5 years ago a hint of his activity????




But sweetheart, it is not the poor Iraqis that are the only ones at risk here!

However, since he likes to gas them and execute them while continually oppressing them what is the difference?

Have you ever believed that the sacrifice of the few for the good of the many is a nobel cause? Look to the example of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ in giving his life for our Salvation.



Sorry, but again it is inaction by you and me that will be the end of hundreds of thousands vs. your "thousands"

And if I remember correctly, the conditions of the cease-fire which he agreed to have been broken for the last 5 years so it is up to the United Nations (which really means the United States anyway) to enforce this law.

Peace
__________________

__________________
hiphop is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:29 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright ÂĐ Interference.com