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Old 01-01-2007, 07:07 PM   #31
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Originally posted by martha
It's thread like this that make me miss our FYM fundies. I'd love to hear their thoughts on this crap.
It would certainly make this thread a whole lot more exciting.
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Old 01-01-2007, 11:44 PM   #32
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Originally posted by redhotswami
but isn't part of Catholic ideology embracing science?
As long as science doesn't get in the way of their traditions.
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Old 01-01-2007, 11:47 PM   #33
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As long as science doesn't get in the way of their traditions.
What do you mean?
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Old 01-01-2007, 11:58 PM   #34
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Originally posted by redhotswami
What do you mean?
No "science" in the world will ever negate the Vatican's tendency toward misogyny or homophobia, for instance.

In other words, "science" is "acceptable," as long as it is considered "irrelevant" to their traditions and authority.

To give credit where it is due, however, their general acceptance of science is greater than that of most Christian denominations.
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Old 01-02-2007, 12:00 AM   #35
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Quote:
Quote:
Originally posted by martha
It's thread like this that make me miss our FYM fundies. I'd love to hear their thoughts on this crap.
Originally posted by Axver
It would certainly make this thread a whole lot more exciting.
You know, in the unlikely event that you're actually being sincere, that's hardly a good way to solicit a contrasting opinion. Why would anyone want to set forth one when they're being pre-emptively mocked before they've even opened their mouth?

By all means, constructively state your own opinion and constructively disagree with others, but why even bother to come here if you're not willing to civilly extend to others a chance to do the same?
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Old 01-02-2007, 12:15 AM   #36
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Actually, I was being sincere. To a point anyway.

Those guys were all over stuff like this, pointing out how their scripture justifies this kind of "thinking." Justifying the replacement of science with their own theology, no matter what. I was hoping to get some kind of answer as to why my own government has caved in to the fascist ways of these people.

I also know that these guys have left FYM because they do feel mocked, and I'm one of the mockers. I think it's the old heat/kitchen thing. If their belief system is so tenous that they can't defend it in light of this kind of issue, then they can go crawling back to the comfort of their own forums and message boards, where no one challenges them and makes them admit that the crap they promote is exclusionary (to be kind) and downright ridiculous (to be honest). This is, above all, a U2 board. I wouldn't go on to one of their Christian boards, post my beliefs, then get all pissy and self-righteous when challenged.
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Old 01-02-2007, 12:17 AM   #37
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Originally posted by Ormus
No "science" in the world will ever negate the Vatican's tendency toward misogyny or homophobia, for instance.
Oh well of course! You're talking about THEM. They don't speak for all of catholic ideology. They think they do They're just out to maintain their regime, and thus react with misogyny and homophobia when they feel threatened.

Plenty of other leaders in the catholic church though disagree. They just don't get to wear snazzy red robes and prada shoes.

I've basically found two very different communities in the catholic church. One is all about securing their power, and teaching their parishoners that the only way to be holy is to come to them for sacraments.

The other is an all-inclusive type of community. The leaders act as members of a community, and don't distance themselves or try to sit higher than everyone else. They embrace everyone, hold hands and sing kumbaya and drink together. AND, they love electron microscopes
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Old 01-02-2007, 01:31 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by martha
I also know that these guys have left FYM because they do feel mocked, and I'm one of the mockers. I think it's the old heat/kitchen thing. If their belief system is so tenous that they can't defend it in light of this kind of issue, then they can go crawling back to the comfort of their own forums and message boards, where no one challenges them and makes them admit that the crap they promote is exclusionary (to be kind) and downright ridiculous (to be honest). This is, above all, a U2 board. I wouldn't go on to one of their Christian boards, post my beliefs, then get all pissy and self-righteous when challenged.
Well, this thread isn't really the place for an involved discussion of this issue (which is bigger than this one thread, and not limited to religious standoffs either, for that matter). But with all due respect, I think you flatter yourself and some others unduly to chalk it all up to "the old heat/kitchen thing." If someone gets soured on this place altogether because they can't handle being the lone advocate for some particular POV, or failing to win anyone over with their arguments on some specific handful of issues out of the many we discuss, then fine, that is indeed their own problem. But if regular expressions of open contempt and hostility are also part of the reason, then that much is a failure of the community here collectively, and has nothing to do with anything so high-minded as what "challenging them" suggests. I would feel the same way about it if FYM happened to be dominated by sociopolitical conservatives and some were falling into a pattern of snide remarks like, "I wonder what some of our resident feminazis think about this policy" or "Well our forum terrorist-lovers must be salivating into their lattes at the latest public opinion polls". Who wants to waste their breath debating someone with that attitude?

And FYM is, of course, not a place for U2 discussion in any case; as the description says, this is an off-topic forum for discussing politics, spirituality, religion and world events.

Like I said, I don't want to further derail this particular thread, especially since at this point there's no reason to conclude that anyone here in fact has strong disagreements with the opinions (on the thread topic) discussed thus far in the first place. But to the extent that you're making a case for open expressions of personal contempt somehow being equivalent to challenging someone through debate and discussion, that, it seems to me, is disingenuous and cheap. We can all do better than that.
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Old 01-02-2007, 04:59 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by martha
Actually, I was being sincere. To a point anyway.

Those guys were all over stuff like this, pointing out how their scripture justifies this kind of "thinking." Justifying the replacement of science with their own theology, no matter what. I was hoping to get some kind of answer as to why my own government has caved in to the fascist ways of these people.

I also know that these guys have left FYM because they do feel mocked, and I'm one of the mockers. I think it's the old heat/kitchen thing. If their belief system is so tenous that they can't defend it in light of this kind of issue, then they can go crawling back to the comfort of their own forums and message boards, where no one challenges them and makes them admit that the crap they promote is exclusionary (to be kind) and downright ridiculous (to be honest). This is, above all, a U2 board. I wouldn't go on to one of their Christian boards, post my beliefs, then get all pissy and self-righteous when challenged.
If I was a lesbian, I'd be on you...after doozer, anyway.


In seriousness, I agree with what martha has said and implied. There's a level of ludicrousness to the views of some groups in society who have been represented on here, and it is ironically this which keeps me coming back continually despite the frustration that I know is felt on both 'sides'. What remains constant is the remaining question of 'why can you not see the error of [insert philosophy here]?'
I think the aspect of domination of any given sociopolitical group is a little moot. Of course we do sometimes see the lone soldier battling on, but more than enough there is a small group of fundies who stick together like a delightful pile of clag and thus promote their own united front. In the end, it still will come down to the fact that if their convictions are not strong enough to withstand any form of onslaught, then they're either incredibly thin skinned, or privately in denial of what they truly believe. In either case, this is not the forum to be entering if you want to stick to guns you do not wholly believe in if you are not upfront about accepting the well known forum truth that aspects of the claims you make will be ripped to shreds. In short, either come in here being open that you are not 100% on your views, or if you are 100%, then enter knowing full well exactly what environment this is. I dont think there's any plot or hidden agenda (which you didn't imply at all, yolland) to gang assault the minority conservatives on here.

At the end of the day, their views can be repulsive. I'm never going to make excuses for that. I dont accept their intolerance. It has fed mine to a great extent, in that now I can barely tolerate listening to any form of lecture on religion, I dont accept those who do not accept gays, I dont accept those who think that I am an absolute sinner, I dont accept those who automatically assign judgement to me or anyone. As a result of theirs, they've fed mine. So be it. I make no bones about that. As always, I question how on earth someone can come to the belief that their kinds of thoughts are just.

However, this is not for here!
I bow out for knowing this is the wrong soapbox.
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Old 01-02-2007, 08:56 AM   #40
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Originally posted by yolland
Well, this thread isn't really the place for an involved discussion of this issue (which is bigger than this one thread, and not limited to religious standoffs either, for that matter).
I disagree. This thread is aboiut Christian Fundamentalists run amok, interfering in science and government, injecting their dubious theology into things where it doesn't belong. I think it's a fine place for this discussion.


Quote:
Originally posted by yolland
I would feel the same way about it if FYM happened to be dominated by sociopolitical conservatives and some were falling into a pattern of snide remarks like, "I wonder what some of our resident feminazis think about this policy" or "Well our forum terrorist-lovers must be salivating into their lattes at the latest public opinion polls". Who wants to waste their breath debating someone with that attitude?
I've responded to posts like this myself. Hell, that's what some of these guys have actually said. Thye're constantly making much more insulting remarks and associations.

Quote:
Originally posted by yolland
there's no reason to conclude that anyone here in fact has strong disagreements with the opinions (on the thread topic) discussed thus far in the first place.
I'm fairly confident that some of the people I'm talking about do indeed think that the ideas being ridiculed here do really make a lot of sense when viewed through their narrow religious prisms. They just aren't around anymore.

Quote:
Originally posted by yolland
But to the extent that you're making a case for open expressions of personal contempt somehow being equivalent to challenging someone through debate and discussion, that, it seems to me, is disingenuous and cheap. We can all do better than that.
I just don't hide behind my religion when I express contempt for them. I don't claim to ask WWJD when I say these things.


yolland, I will defer to your mod status and drop it, but I make no apologies for disliking these people and what they stand for. I think it's "disingenuous and cheap" for these people to constantly be using their religion to bully, exclude, and justify medieval thinking.
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Old 01-02-2007, 04:10 PM   #41
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Yes, where are the "fundies?"

I couldn't help but notice there are none quoted in the article and a google of “In order to avoid offending religious fundamentalists, our National Park Service is under orders to suspend its belief in geology” results only in hits for sites mocking these same unquoted "fundies." (Try it)
So it appears to me that what we have is one noted geologist, Jeff Ruch, giving his opinion, which then takes off into "fundie"/America bashing in the blogosphere and FYM.
I'm sorry...did I say "noted geologist?" Of coarse what I meant to say was "noted bureaucratic lawyer" Jeff Ruch. I googled his name as well (since he's the only person actually quoted) and found that in 2004 he said of Bush administration Special Counsel and Ave Maria Law School graduate Scott Bloch.
"Scott Bloch's personnel practices are taken straight from The DaVinci Code rather than the civil service manual."
I'm not even sure what that means except to say that maybe Mr. Ruch shares some of y'all's prejudices against "fundies." Which would make ALL of this outrage and frustration completely self-contrived.

Quote:
But with all due respect, I think you flatter yourself and some others unduly to chalk it all up to "the old heat/kitchen thing."
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Old 01-02-2007, 04:22 PM   #42
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in 2004 he said of Bush administration Special Counsel and Ave Maria Law School graduate Scott Bloch.
"Scott Bloch's personnel practices are taken straight from The DaVinci Code rather than the civil service manual."
I'm not even sure what that means except to say that maybe Mr. Ruch shares some of y'all's prejudices against "fundies."
That's quite a conclusion you reached. Logical reasoning.
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Old 01-02-2007, 04:52 PM   #43
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That's quite a conclusion you reached. Logical reasoning.
Quote:
The US is becoming the laughing stock of the thinking world.
of coarse being the much more logical conclusion to be reached.
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Old 01-02-2007, 05:03 PM   #44
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of coarse being the much more logical conclusion to be reached.
No, that's an observation from living abroad and being a member of the scientific community.
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Old 01-02-2007, 05:10 PM   #45
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it seems that people who don't believe in evolution, don't.

evolve, that is.

if you don't believe in evolution, you have to give back your opposable thumbs.

seriously, folks. i'm sick of this superstitious bullshit.

and that's what it is. and i find it interesting that, say, we'll get people who whine about, say, Affirmative Action, but then support the right for creationists to be included in the annals of scientific knowledge.
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