Gay Coercion?

[A_Wanderer]

Four firefighters are due before a disciplinary hearing over their refusal to hand out leaflets at a gay pride march in Glasgow.

Another five men, who are also based at the city's Cowcaddens fire station, had their cases considered last month.

All nine will be told later whether the fire brigade plans to take action.

Some of the men were opposed to attending the event on religious grounds while others did not think it was part of their core duties.

However, gay rights campaigners argue that firefighters are public servants who cannot be seen to discriminate.

The firefighters were reported by superior officers after the Pride Scotia march in June for disobeying orders.

A spokesman for Strathclyde Fire and Rescue confirmed Monday was expected to be the final day of the hearing and that it would then take senior officers several days before deciding what action to take.

"This will be the final stage of the evidence gathering," the spokesman said.

'No good reason'

Both the officers' employers and the Fire Brigades Union (FBU) have declined to comment on the matter until the investigation is complete.

Before last month's proceedings began, FBU Scotland chairman Roddy Robertson admitted it was a "highly controversial issue".

Scottish National Party MSP Fergus Ewing branded the decision to discipline the group as "unbelievable", claiming they were entitled to their private views.

However, gay rights campaign group Stonewall Scotland backed the disciplinary proceedings.

Its director Calum Irving said: "A modern fire service does a lot of community safety and trying to reach as many different parts as they can.

"Firefighters visit church groups and other community groups.

"There's no good reason why they should not have been engaged with the LGBT (lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender) community, which a number of fire services across Scotland are doing very well."

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One wonders what leaflets they would be handing out, and then go on to think about issues of freedom of association and the responsibilities of employment.

 

[melon]

However, gay rights campaigners argue that firefighters are public servants who cannot be seen to discriminate.

Exactly. If it is believed that they hold private views of contempt against gay people, how can it be expected that they have instilled the trust necessary to be a firefighter?

Historically, there is a lot of distrust between the gay community and public servants like policemen and firefighters, and I can only imagine the outrage if the police/firefighters had viciously opposed passing out leaflets to blacks or Jews. But since they're gay--and implicitly dirty/sinful--it's "religious freedom" that makes it okay to hate them? Why isn't it okay to hate blacks or Jews then?

Your headline is asinine, as well.

Melon

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

One wonders what leaflets they would be handing out

that's what i was wondering

 

[melon]

Re: Re: Gay Coercion?

that's what i was wondering

If I had to guess, some PR leaflet outlining how "progressive" they are, or a generic fire safety leaflet.

Chances are, their opposition had nothing to do with the leaflet and everything to do with the event.

Melon

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

I would definitely agree, they are there to serve the entire community. It's not "coercion" to ask them to act in accordance with that expectation. After all, they wouldn't refuse to put out a fire in a gay person's home, would they?

 

[AEON]

Forcing public servants, or anyone else, to attend a political parade and then also force them to hand out leaflets is appalling and ridiculous.

Wanderer makes a great point regarding the freedom of associations (which includes the freedom to NOT associate.)

 

[Se7en]

One wonders what leaflets they would be handing out

probably something like:

"jesus loves you...in the butt"

or

"how to be gay: converting the hetero"

i simply can't imagine firefighters handing out fire safety material.

 

[Greenlight]

[
One wonders what leaflets they would be handing out,

I believe that they were standard fire information safety leaflets. Whilst I assume it doesn't constitute one of their core duties, it's normal for firefighters to attend and distribute such leaflets at local community events.

 

[verte76]

These people are supposed to be serving a community. Their own personal beliefs shouldn't get in the way of this. They should have handed the leaflets out. They didn't do their jobs, thus they got fired.

 

[80sU2isBest]

To me, it depends on what the leaflets are. If they are fire safety leaflets or something important like that, they should hand them out - at the entrances. I see no reason they should have to mill around in the parade handing out leflets.

 

[Irvine511]

where i live, both the washington DC police department and the arlington and alexandria police departments have special LGBT liaisions who specialize in community relations -- there was a superb article on the WDPD liaison written last year that's might be quite illuminating on the subject.

[q]Forcing public servants, or anyone else, to attend a political parade and then also force them to hand out leaflets is appalling and ridiculous.

Wanderer makes a great point regarding the freedom of associations (which includes the freedom to NOT associate.)[/q]

it's their JOB.

no one is asking them to wave a rainbow flag and sit on a float in a parade. they are simply asking them to be present at a major cultural festival where the fire department can make themselves visible to a good 5-10% of the city's population.

this has nothing to do with freedom of association. this has everything to do with the Glasgow Fire Department fufilling it's obligation to protect all members of the Glaswegian community, no matter who or what they are. at any and all cultural festivals in the cities -- a Caribbean Festival, Gay Pride, Cinqo De Myo -- nearly all of the cities various social service departments set up booths and pass out information about their obligations to the community and seek to shake hands with people in order to create a good working relationship between themselves and the communities they serve. this is particularly important with police work, as people are far more likely to come forward and help in the solving (and prevention) of crimes if they feel as if the police are allies instead of adversaries, and thus the city as a whole becomes safer.

it was the FD's job to be at that parade. it will help them do their jobs better.

shame on the fire fighters who can't see past their own little petty prejudices.

 

[Judah]

It's all dependent upon how clear their job duties are.

We've had similar controversies here in Canada, with pharmacists refusing to dispense morning-after pills, or municipal government staff refusing to perform civil gay marriages or provide gay couples with marriage licences. They cite that it's against their religion...a matter of conscience...so they can't fulfill their duties. I say if you can't do your job fully, then you're not qualified to do the job and you shouldn't be in it.

*edit: oops, Irvine beat me to the same point...and did it much better*

 

[BVS]

Forcing public servants, or anyone else, to attend a political parade and then also force them to hand out leaflets is appalling and ridiculous.

A political parade?

 

[Irvine511]

i should add that the article i mentioned, which i really recommend reading (and there's great visual material to go with it), wasn't about one specific liaison to the BGLT community; it's about the whole separate unit, led by Officer Brett Parsons, that the WPD has designed to work with the gay community, just like they have a Latino Liaison Unit, an Asian Liaison Unit and a Deaf Unit.

 

[BrownEyedBoy]

where i live, both the washington DC police department and the arlington and alexandria police departments have special LGBT liaisions who specialize in community relations -- there was a superb article on the WDPD liaison written last year that's might be quite illuminating on the subject.

[q]Forcing public servants, or anyone else, to attend a political parade and then also force them to hand out leaflets is appalling and ridiculous.

Wanderer makes a great point regarding the freedom of associations (which includes the freedom to NOT associate.)[/q]

it's their JOB.

no one is asking them to wave a rainbow flag and sit on a float in a parade. they are simply asking them to be present at a major cultural festival where the fire department can make themselves visible to a good 5-10% of the city's population.

this has nothing to do with freedom of association. this has everything to do with the Glasgow Fire Department fufilling it's obligation to protect all members of the Glaswegian community, no matter who or what they are. at any and all cultural festivals in the cities -- a Caribbean Festival, Gay Pride, Cinqo De Myo -- nearly all of the cities various social service departments set up booths and pass out information about their obligations to the community and seek to shake hands with people in order to create a good working relationship between themselves and the communities they serve. this is particularly important with police work, as people are far more likely to come forward and help in the solving (and prevention) of crimes if they feel as if the police are allies instead of adversaries, and thus the city as a whole becomes safer.

it was the FD's job to be at that parade. it will help them do their jobs better.

shame on the fire fighters who can't see past their own little petty prejudices.

It`s not "their job" to go to a gay pride parade. The last time I checked a firefighter´s job was to help in emergencies.

To suddenly come up with new chores for them to fulfill is not right. It was a dumb determination to have firefighters handing out leaflets. Besides the fact that I would expect a firefighter to be overqualified to do that, I think someone else could have done that.

Boy scouts maybe?

 

[Irvine511]

It`s not "their job" to go to a gay pride parade. The last time I checked a firefighter´s job was to help in emergencies.

To suddenly come up with new chores for them to fulfill is not right. It was a dumb determination to have firefighters handing out leaflets. Besides the fact that I would expect a firefighter to be overqualified to do that, I think someone else could have done that.

part of the job for ANY city services -- fire department, police department -- is to make themselves visible and available to the community and to invest time and energy into building up relationships with the communities in which they serve. part of doing this is to make appearances at various cultural festivals (among other things) and pass out information on the services they provide to the city, which is probably what those leaflets were for. i have a leaflet as well as the business card of the LGBT liaison for the Arlington Police Department because i happened to pass him at Gay Pride in June and he handed me his card, smiled, shook my hand, and said what his job was. this is not a "new chore." this is part of the job description.

yes, it IS their job.

 

[BrownEyedBoy]

Right, because the first thing that comes to mind when thinking about becoming a firefighter is "Wow, I can´t wait to hand out leaflets at a gay pride parade!"

 

[Liesje]

Right, because the first thing that comes to mind when thinking about becoming a firefighter is "Wow, I can´t wait to hand out leaflets at a gay pride parade!"

I use to live across from a firestation and they were always hosting or attending community events. Honestly, I think they put in more time doing that than putting out fires (fortunately). I also planned a fundraiser for a job I had this past spring and the figherfighters were happy to come over with an engine and give a demonstration.

They take community involvement VERY seriously; it is a HUGE part of their job.

 

[Irvine511]

Right, because the first thing that comes to mind when thinking about becoming a firefighter is "Wow, I can´t wait to hand out leaflets at a gay pride parade!"

you know what, if this were ANY other cultural event, you wouldn't even think twice. so take your prejudice and shove it.

guess what?

there are many, many, many immigrants from Central America (mostly Salvadoreans and Guatemalans) in my neighborhood, and they have various festivals throughout the year, and guess what, the fire department and the police department are at these festivals and pass out leaflets IN SPANISH so that people will know what to do in case their homes start to burn down.

hy is a gay pride parade ANY different from ANY other cultural festival?

 

[Se7en]

because being gay is gross!!!

 

[BrownEyedBoy]

Some people´s religion clashes with homosexuality. When you realize how hard it is to respect that then you´ll realize how hard it is for them to respect homosexuality.

Homosexuals are still very far away from full acceptance and forcing it upon people is not the right way to do it. That´s all.

 

[Irvine511]

because being gay is gross!!!

so is performing oral sex on a woman!

but you don't see me condemning anyone for it or using various religious texts to justify my own personal tastes or saying that woman have to right to receive, let alone enjoy, having someone perform oral sex on them. in fact, it makes me HAPPY when other people are happy and have fun and feel fufilled even if i think that one specific activity to be a bit of a stomach-turner.

but i suppose we cannot expect straight men to ever have to countenance the toleration of things that they themselves deem to be "gross."

 

[Liesje]

Some people´s religion clashes with homosexuality. When you realize how hard it is to respect that then you´ll realize how hard it is for them to respect homosexuality.

....but when you start working as a firefighter you agree that it is part of your job to participate in community events. Basically, these firefighters are refusing to do a job they originally agreed to do.

This isn't about gay people, it's about seperation of church and state. Firefighters work for their local governments, not for churches. When you work for a government, you don't get to refuse to do your job because of your own personal religious beliefs.

 

[Irvine511]

Some people´s religion clashes with homosexuality. When you realize how hard it is to respect that then you´ll realize how hard it is for them to respect homosexuality.

Homosexuals are still very far away from full acceptance and forcing it upon people is not the right way to do it. That´s all.

fuck that. there's no forcing anywhere. i'm so fucking sick of people thinking that the mere presence of gay people, or a gay-themed event, is somehow tantamount to "forcing" homosexuality on anyone. let me ask you BEB -- ever talk about your girlfriend? ever talk about being married? ever talk about having kids? ever talk about how pretty girls are? ever been to a wedding?

well, if you have, STOP FORCING YOUR HETEROSEXUALITY ON ME!

i'm sick of this -- religion is no excuse for not doing your job. if your religion impedes the performance of your job, then find another job. no one is asking the firefighters to wave a flag or sit on a float. they are asking them to attend a cultural festival, just one among many held in every city in every country throughout the world on any given weekend and do their part in community outreach.

 

[Justin24]

Right, because the first thing that comes to mind when thinking about becoming a firefighter is "Wow, I can´t wait to hand out leaflets at a gay pride parade!"

For someone who supports illegal immigration and immigrants from South and Central America you sure dont show respect to others. How can you call yourself a christian if you dont respect all of God's people.

 

[yolland]

Let's not make this debate personal please, there's no need for that.

 

[BrownEyedBoy]

For someone who supports illegal immigration and immigrants from South and Central America you sure dont show respect to others. How can you call yourself a christian if you dont respect all of God's people.

I don`t think I was being disrespectful but if you tell me what part was disrespectful I´ll either clear it up or apologize.

 

[Justin24]

Right, because the first thing that comes to mind when thinking about becoming a firefighter is "Wow, I can´t wait to hand out leaflets at a gay pride parade!"

Some people´s religion clashes with homosexuality. When you realize how hard it is to respect that then you´ll realize how hard it is for them to respect homosexuality.

Homosexuals are still very far away from full acceptance and forcing it upon people is not the right way to do it. That´s all.

No one is forcing the homosexuality on me or anyone.

 

[BrownEyedBoy]

fuck that. there's no forcing anywhere. i'm so fucking sick of people thinking that the mere presence of gay people, or a gay-themed event, is somehow tantamount to "forcing" homosexuality on anyone. let me ask you BEB -- ever talk about your girlfriend? ever talk about being married? ever talk about having kids? ever talk about how pretty girls are? ever been to a wedding?

well, if you have, STOP FORCING YOUR HETEROSEXUALITY ON ME!

i'm sick of this -- religion is no excuse for not doing your job. if your religion impedes the performance of your job, then find another job. no one is asking the firefighters to wave a flag or sit on a float. they are asking them to attend a cultural festival, just one among many held in every city in every country throughout the world on any given weekend and do their part in community outreach.

What you and Lies say does make sense. If it is part of the job description than I guess there´s no discussion.

P.S. I have nothing against homosexuals. My problem comes when I thought things were being forced upon others for no reason.

 

[Liesje]

What you and Lies say does make sense. If it is part of the job description than I guess there´s no discussion.

P.S. I have nothing against homosexuals. My problem comes when I thought things were being forced upon others for no reason.

I think the confusing thing is that at first glance it seems like the firefighters were required to participate in the parade and hand out materials that dealt with homosexuality. All they have to do is be there for safety reasons (because that's the nature of their job) and handout their own materials.