Fundamentalist Christianity & SEX - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 12-15-2001, 01:42 PM   #1
The Fly
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Memphis, TN, 38104
Posts: 226
Local Time: 02:58 AM
Fundamentalist Christianity & SEX


Having read the other 'God' thread, I thought I'd continue in that vein. I was raised in an ultra-conservative, Holy-Roller type church & my dad was a preacher. I've believed in Christ since I was a child, and the principles of Christianity.

My biggest questions & problems with the Church are in the sexual arena. I personally think that after 2000 years, the church doesn't have a CLUE as to how to deal with and / or discuss human sexuality.

At least in the denomination in which I was raised, you were made to feel like a demon-possesed person if you had normal sexual feelings. (I almost mean that literally...I was raised in the Assemblies of God, so that should give you some idea.) I know that marital sex is the Christian ideal, but I know preachers who were sleeping with other folks wives, etc., and I saw sooooo much hypocrisy in the sexual arena that it nearly turns me off to Christianity. Does anyone know where I'm coming from on this? Is the Church only to sit back and say, "Premarital sex is evil and an embarassing subject, so We'll not discuss it and just sweep it under the rug...even if it fosters sexual deviance."


sorry to rant.
__________________

__________________
bonofnattic is offline  
Old 12-15-2001, 02:55 PM   #2
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
80sU2isBest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 4,970
Local Time: 09:58 PM
I believe that any sex besides sex with your spouse is wrong. But I also know that sexual feelings are something that most people have to deal with, and if I had kids I would definitely talk with them about this stuff so that they wouldn't have to learn from someone else.

__________________

__________________
80sU2isBest is offline  
Old 12-15-2001, 08:00 PM   #3
Kid A
 
The Wanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Holy Roman Empire
Posts: 5,271
Local Time: 09:58 PM
the Church wants everyone to reproduce, but it seems they don't want anyone to have sex, interesting paradox
__________________
The Wanderer is offline  
Old 12-15-2001, 10:08 PM   #4
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
Michael Griffiths's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Playa Del Carmen, Mexico
Posts: 3,925
Local Time: 02:58 AM
The real hypocricy for me, is when I hear the church saying that lust is evil, but sex between two, loving, married people okay. Now, does the church really believe that once two people get married, that there are no feelings of lust involved in the sexual act? Do they really believe that a man can "perform" without feeling the slightest bit lustful? Do they not understand that people have brains? It's ludicrous, when one thinks about it, that so many people actually buy into some of this nonsense. It's as though they want you to forget everything you already know, just so something might make sense to you when ordinarily it just wouldn't.

I think if the church wants to condem pre-marital sex, they should start by admitting that sex, as a concept, as a way of expression, as a natural part of life, is a beautiful thing. Then they should (if they want to) go on to say that this shouldn't be experienced outside of marriage. To deny the very feelings that one is born with is to create false views and resentment. This is where confusion can take over. Let people decide for themselves if they want to live their life according the church, but don't lie to them about sex! Anyway, I don't know if I made any sense whatsoever...

------------------
The Tempest

[This message has been edited by Michael Griffiths (edited 12-15-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Michael Griffiths (edited 12-15-2001).]
__________________
Michael Griffiths is offline  
Old 12-15-2001, 10:37 PM   #5
Rock n' Roll Doggie
ALL ACCESS
 
speedracer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: MD
Posts: 7,572
Local Time: 09:58 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Michael Griffiths:

I think if the church wants to condem pre-marital sex, they should start by admitting that sex, as a concept, as a way of expression, as a natural part of life, is a beautiful thing. Then they should (if they want to) go on to say that this shouldn't be experienced outside of marriage. To deny the very feelings that one is born with is to create false views and resentment. This is where confusion can take over. Let people decide for themselves if they want to live their life according the church, but don't lie to them about sex! Anyway, I don't know if I made any sense whatsoever...

I can't speak for the Catholic church, but this seems to be the general consensus of the evangelical churches.
__________________
speedracer is offline  
Old 12-15-2001, 11:44 PM   #6
The Fly
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Memphis, TN, 38104
Posts: 226
Local Time: 02:58 AM
Well, you hit the nail on the head when you mentioned "lust". I mean, the way it was treated in my church, if at all mentioned, you were like a demon-possessed pervert if you couldn't NOT lust. For years, unfortunately during my sexual peak, I thought I was some freak just for having normal sexual desire. I didn't realize that thinking about it every 6 seconds was normal, and while I was thinking I was a hellbound-hormone, all of the guys that are now in their 30's with me and are "family, church-going guys" were not only lusting, but were screwing like rabbits.

I mean, I believe in Jesus Christ, but the way much of the American Church (never been anywhere else) treats human sexuality is just one cruel joke. I have a great deal of anger here as you can see. sorry to rant.
__________________
bonofnattic is offline  
Old 12-16-2001, 03:09 AM   #7
Rock n' Roll Doggie
ALL ACCESS
 
sulawesigirl4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Virginia
Posts: 7,416
Local Time: 09:58 PM
I know exactly where you are coming from on this. I too was raised in a rather conservative Christian environment. My parents were missionaries. As a result of what I was taught as I grew to adulthood, I found that I had deep-seated reservations about human sexuality and feelings of guilt and shame over the entire topic. And I don't really think that this is God's intent. On the other hand, I live in a world that tells me 'if it feels good, do it' and that sex is a 'right'. I'm not sure if I agree with that either.

So where is the balance? I wish I knew. My childhood training has definitely given me a knee-jerk reaction to think of extra-marital sex as wrong. And just because "times have changed" doesn't necessarily mean that the standards for morality must also shift. But on the other hand, what IS the proper expression? Again, I wish I knew.

I definitely think that the mystique and the "sin" factor needs to be removed in the church in discussions about sex. From what I understand in the Bible, God intended it to be a beautiful expression between humans, the highest we can attain to in our mortal bodies. So demonizing it is not the answer. Nor is laying down harsh rules and ostracizing those who don't conform to them. That also seems to be counter-productive.

It's a touchy issue. Because inevitably when discussing this you are going to go back to the idea of the nature of truth. Is there absolute truth? Is there a standard of morality that is absolute? And if so, what does that require of us? I'm sure people will be giving some responses along the lines of "I'll do what works for me, you do what works for you." And that's all well and good. But it puts us back at square one. No absolutes. No certainties. No higher law to answer to. And I'm not sure that's the world I want to live in either.

That's not a good answer to your question. lol. As you can tell, I don't have this one ironed out in my mind yet either. Still haven't found what I'm looking for...

-sula
__________________
sulawesigirl4 is offline  
Old 12-16-2001, 03:20 AM   #8
War Child
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Burbank, CA
Posts: 560
Local Time: 09:58 PM
After watching the History Channel's The History Of Sex it was quite interesting to see how the whole sexual morality of Christianity was actually manufactured long after Christ died by a member of the church with a personal agenda.
__________________
DoctorGonzo is offline  
Old 12-16-2001, 03:59 AM   #9
The Fly
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Memphis, TN, 38104
Posts: 226
Local Time: 02:58 AM
I don't want anyone to think that I feel "anything goes", either, in reference to 80'sU2's comment. I agree so much that one should talk with one's kids about sex, but in a very educated & understanding manner. My parents talked with me, but they were not the most educated & basically said, "Don't do it"...bless their hearts, they meant well. Their reaction wouldn't have been understanding had I become an undwed daddy or if I had been gay.

I'll be even more blunt: I think if the Church didn't give sexuality such a mysterious, sinful, shameful context, perhaps you wouldn't have as many people turn to pornography, etc., for sexual expression. I think it is much more healthy to express sexuality in a committed relationship than with deviance. However, you have youth-directors telling their groups "it's a sin" and "don't make-out" and leaving it at that, while their kids are sleeping together & surfing net-porn. I've even heard of Pastor's wives and youth-directors encouraging kids to have abortions so as not to embarass a church or a family. That's much more evil than raging hormones, in my opinion.

I mean, the Church really misses it by focusing on nudity-in-the-media and sex as shameful & sinful, and yet not worrying about greed, arrogance, pride, hatred, envy, and jealousy. I'm not saying we shouldn't have self-control, obviously there are problems with the spread of STD's, teen-pregnancy, etc., but I just think we should have more open, educated (key word), and compassionate discussions of sex within the Christian world.

I don't know what the answer is, and when I point a finger, I'm pointing 4 back at myself.
__________________
bonofnattic is offline  
Old 12-16-2001, 10:28 AM   #10
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: ZOO-STATES
Posts: 629
Local Time: 02:58 AM
religious nuts..... , a really weird useless topic
__________________
IvanClaytonJnr is offline  
Old 12-16-2001, 01:53 PM   #11
Rock n' Roll Doggie
ALL ACCESS
 
sulawesigirl4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Virginia
Posts: 7,416
Local Time: 09:58 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by IvanClaytonJnr:
religious nuts..... , a really weird useless topic
Thank you for your thoughtful and meaningful contribution to this discussion. Sweeping generalizations and insults are always the best way to approach these things.
__________________
sulawesigirl4 is offline  
Old 12-16-2001, 02:33 PM   #12
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: full of sound and fury
Posts: 3,386
Local Time: 03:58 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by The Wanderer:
the Church wants everyone to reproduce, but it seems they don't want anyone to have sex, interesting paradox
Hi Wanderer, see speedracer's comments. I think the church is more against sex outside of marriage.

And for what reason? Because pre-marital sex or adulterous sex bring their own sets of problems.


foray

__________________
foray is offline  
Old 12-16-2001, 05:55 PM   #13
The Fly
 
Hans Moleman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Springfield, VD
Posts: 94
Local Time: 10:58 PM
Most revulsion to sex comes from Augustinian philosophy and later stoic additions, which mostly came from St. Thomas Aquinas, the father of modern Catholic philosophy and heavily influences all Christianity, and St. John Chrysostom, who is the father of Greek Orthodox philosophy. They all took the philosophies of St. Paul to extremes.

Not only did they deem sex as evil, they deemed everything emotional as evil. Sex was evil, because it was "lust," and this evil extended into married sex as well. Wives were expressly forbidden to feel any pleasure during sex, otherwise it was the sin of lust. Husbands were told this as well, although I do not understand how this would be enforceable in practice, since I highly doubt men can achieve orgasm without any lustful thoughts.

Sadness was expressly forbidden as well, especially amongst men. To cry at a funeral was a sign of weakness. Now women were allowed such emotional outbursts, because they were already evil in the eyes of these stoics. Women were categorically "put in their place," and were as far labelled as spawns of Satan in the uterus, as the stoics believed all fetuses to be inherently male. All this came from pseudophilosophical claims about original sin coming from Eve--the first woman.

What about St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas, and St. John Chrysostom? St. Augustine was a real trip. He said that women singing in church gave him "lustful thoughts," so they got banned too. Bring on the Gregorian chants. St. Thomas Aquinas, by legend, was born with no sexual feelings--a true asexual. I doubt this, but this shows what his followers saw as the ideal. St. John Chrysostom equally hated women, and burned a gigantic and old library full of ancient books in Alexandria, Egypt, where he gleefully stated that now all literature was now Christian.

Homosexuals, of course, got their greatest ire. Everything we did, to them, should be reduced to their most basic and "natural" function. Homosexuality was seen to them as wholly consumed in lust and served no natural purpose, since it had no procreative aspect. Bind that with beliefs that homosexual acts were just straight people fooling around, the belief that the recipient was acting "like a woman" (remember how much they hated women), and add that with Crusades-era false claims that the Christian crusaders were being "sodomized" by the Muslims invaders (stated to anger the people into supporting the Crusades), and you have why sex is determined to be evil.

Summary:

The Christian ideal to them was male, celibate, unemotional, aloof, and wholly asexual. Marriage, while not sinful, was for the weak, and even them, married couples were not allowed to enjoy it. Sex, in all circumstances, was only for procreation, and this stance still is enforced by the Catholic Church.

Almost all modern opposition to sex can be traced to these stoics, and not the Bible as much, solely on the basis of the language much of these religions choose to use.

The issue of unmarried people and sex was not much of an issue in the Biblical times, mostly because everyone got arranged marriages at around 13 back then, often before puberty, which began around 15-16 on average back then. The obvious problems were in dealing with adultery as a result.

~Melon

------------------
"Oh no...my brains."
__________________
Hans Moleman is offline  
Old 12-16-2001, 06:33 PM   #14
Babyface
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: London, UK
Posts: 1
Local Time: 02:58 AM
The greatest quote about lust is thus;

'those who choose to restrain their desire obviously have desires that are weak enough to be restained'.

__________________
The Real Thing is offline  
Old 12-25-2001, 04:45 AM   #15
Refugee
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Denver,CO
Posts: 1,388
Local Time: 07:58 PM
I was always curious about one thing when it came to Christian kids and sex.

I went to a Christian school my entire life and was raised in a very fundamentalist Christian home. I do not regret and hold many of these values to this day even though I do not practice my religion as my father did or expects me to. Anyways, that said...I witnessed many many of my friends and classmates rush into early marriages (19,20,21) that almost always ended in early divorces (22,23,24). I wonder if the fact that the church forbides pre-marital sex that it in essence pushes these mentally immature (relatively speaking) kids into relationships and lives they are in no way equipped to handle. The connection always bothered me and I am glad I am not a statistic. Thank God for my buddhist mother!

------------------
Well the God I believe in isn't short of cash..Mister!
__________________

__________________
cmb737 is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:58 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com