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Old 04-02-2003, 06:49 PM   #16
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Originally posted by womanfish
now it seems that the French (and in some ways Canada) would rather be allys with Russia and China.
I'm sorry, but since when are we (Canadians) allying ourselves with these countries? What, we aren't even allowed, as an f'n sovereign country to (horror upon horrors) disagree with the US? It's not the first time in history either, if you remember the Cuban crisis in the 60s. Canada isn't even on the security council, it has not allied itself with anybody, and said that it would not support a war unless that 2nd resolution was passed. 70%+ of Canadians don't support the war, and our Prime Minister clearly spoke for the majority. To now imply we're allied with these new evildoers is really stretching it.
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Old 04-02-2003, 07:03 PM   #17
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It is definitely time to exam where this country is going in the future. Alliances have come and gone, new ones are made, and old ones fade away. This one seems to be near the end.

Peace
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Old 04-02-2003, 08:33 PM   #18
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I'm appalled by the previous statement.
Maybe we should examine where we are coming from. What a pile of shit this administration has lead us into. Condemnation from most of the world, especially countries with high Islamic communities. Loss of allies of over 225 years, for what?
I'm done now. The voices in here (with exceptions) have become so strident and arrogant, it is impossible to get a dissentling voice in edgewise (no pun intended).

edited to say
Maybe this forum should be callled WARMONGERS and the rest of us will stay out (apparent from the number of dissenting voices comfortable enough to still post hear).

Sorry if I am sounding strident, but I've had enough of the holier than thou attitudes of some posters.
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Old 04-02-2003, 08:53 PM   #19
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Originally posted by Scarletwine
I'm appalled by the previous statement.
Maybe we should examine where we are coming from. What a pile of shit this administration has lead us into. Condemnation from most of the world, especially countries with high Islamic communities. Loss of allies of over 225 years, for what?
I'm done now. The voices in here (with exceptions) have become so strident and arrogant, it is impossible to get a dissentling voice in edgewise (no pun intended).

edited to say
Maybe this forum should be callled WARMONGERS and the rest of us will stay out (apparent from the number of dissenting voices comfortable enough to still post hear).

Sorry if I am sounding strident, but I've had enough of the holier than thou attitudes of some posters.
Since you start your post referring to my post, and there is no new paragraph, I guess I am one of the strident and arrogent. I am sure it is not a personal attack, since you were obviously attacking my post, and not slinging insults my way.

Don't be upset over the vandalism of the replica of the Statue of Liberty. Don't be upset over the vandalism of the 9/11 memorial in Paris. Don't be upset over the vandalism at the cemetary, where soldiers from foreign countries gave their lives to liberate that country.

France, has been acting in their own self-interests on this issue, as we have. If our paths do not follow the same road, it is time to move on. That is all I was saying, and I did not say it nastily, or with malice, or with anything that deserved the response it received above.

As to members, not posting here, I garentee you, that the ARROGANT WARMONGERS you have labeled, have disappeared in larger numbers because of some of the BIASED UNSUBSTANTIATED LIES that are posted about our servicemembers, our military, and our President.
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Old 04-02-2003, 09:02 PM   #20
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Oh, I don't know that anyone is proposing a drastic change in international relations, to last over the long haul. Heck, Colin Powell was just in Turkey today. We've had alot of disagreement with the Turks as well over the past few months but this meeting was very constructive. Turkey OKed humanitarian shipments from their country and this is certainly a positive thing. I agree that this administration has screwed up big time in some of our relationships but I think the overall relationships with these countries can survive one policy disagreement. Alot of riding on how post-war Iraq is dealt with. If we play our cards right in Iraq, they'll have open, honest, fair democratic elections, elect their leaders, which will in all likelihood include religious leaders, and it will be our turn to accept the new leaders of Iraq and welcome Iraq into the family of nations. This is crucial. We cannot afford to screw up with this. If the Iraqis are pleased with the outcome of the action then things should be OK. If we do screw up we're
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Old 04-02-2003, 09:05 PM   #21
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No it actually wasn't at you. But a couple of other posters.

We are accepting surrendering Iraqi soldiers, arming Iraqi (possible) dissenters, but can't tolerate a few off the wall dissendents in France. Of course thaey are upsetting but first we had a WWII vet handing back his medal given to him by France. Give me a break.
As to the attacks against my gov't, I'd argue that they are not unsubstantiated, or lies, or whatever. We shall have to disagree.
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Old 04-02-2003, 09:08 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox


As to members, not posting here, I garentee you, that the ARROGANT WARMONGERS you have labeled, have disappeared in larger numbers because of some of the BIASED UNSUBSTANTIATED LIES that are posted about our servicemembers, our military, and our President.
Exatly. I was thinking about that today, how many of the people opposing the war in this forum don't really seem to be concerned about peace, but more with bashing the president wth unsubstantiated statments like "Bush doesn't care about killing civilians" and crap like that. That serves no purpose but to demonize the man.
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Old 04-02-2003, 09:08 PM   #23
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If I were a VET, and French people were desecrating the graves of my comrades who fought and died to liberate their country, at this point, my medal would be in the mail too.

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Old 04-02-2003, 09:20 PM   #24
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I will agree, desecrating graves is *not* cool and no one should have to tolerate that. Personally I am not sure I'd put my medal in the mail because not all French people are doing this madness and I'm sure not all of them approve of this at all. I can understand the anger, the hurt, and the pain at such appalling acts being committed. I still don't want to blame France, the country. The government and some of its supporters, yes. All of the people, no.
Crash-time.
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Old 04-02-2003, 09:41 PM   #25
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Originally posted by anitram


I'm sorry, but since when are we (Canadians) allying ourselves with these countries? What, we aren't even allowed, as an f'n sovereign country to (horror upon horrors) disagree with the US? It's not the first time in history either, if you remember the Cuban crisis in the 60s. Canada isn't even on the security council, it has not allied itself with anybody, and said that it would not support a war unless that 2nd resolution was passed. 70%+ of Canadians don't support the war, and our Prime Minister clearly spoke for the majority. To now imply we're allied with these new evildoers is really stretching it.

Hey, I didn't say it. It was a French Canadian. Don't shoot the messenger.

And Scarletwine - you need to calm down. If any of your rant was towards me, which I don't understand why it would be, I ask you to think about this. I love France, I love to visit France, I find the people there much nicer than many Americans have a stereotype of, I don't call my French Fries Freedom Fries, I don't boycott French goods (I just had French wine and French cheese last night). But when it comes to people in France saying they would rather have Iraq win than the U.S. and Britain and Australia and there are French who are desecrating graves of soldiers that liberated their ancestors, then yes , it bothers me and should bother any American or Brit.

Also my other problem is this:

the top 4 trade nations with Iraq (in order)
1. France
2. Russia
3. Australia
4. China

Top 3 Creditor Nations of Iraq (in order)
1.France
2.Russia
3.China

3 Countries with the largest oil contracts and oil field construction contracts with Iraq.

-France
-Russia
-Germany

My gut tells me that France chose money over allies and that is a shame.

I know countries have their own political and economic interests, but sometimes you have to concede to help an ally. That's just my opinion. I don't think of myself as a warmonger, because I am quite critical of military action at any time, but it looks like anyone who thinks that force was the only unfortunate answer, has now been labeled.

And to add one thing - as strained as relations are right now, I also think that within not too long, things will get back to the way they were. And I can continue to feel comfortable visiting France.
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Old 04-02-2003, 09:59 PM   #26
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i think it's more like one in three is against america and the aggressive spreading of american imperialism.
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Old 04-02-2003, 10:03 PM   #27
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i think it's more like one in three is against america and the aggressive spreading of american imperialism.
You said it - against America. Allies aren't "against" eachother...
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Old 04-02-2003, 10:44 PM   #28
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I hope the French will be as vocal next time the Chinese and Russians kill some Tibetans or Chechnyans...
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Old 04-02-2003, 11:53 PM   #29
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EVERYONE in here needs to calm down.

Please remember that persons on both sides of this debate have their good points. We need to not call names and make assumptions, but consider all arguments independently and on their own merits. I'm talking to EVERYONE: pro- and anti-war, American and otherwise.

If this thread doesn't move past MUTUAL mudslinging ASAP, it will be closed.

If you cannot live together in here, you cannot live together out there, let me tell ya. --Bono
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Old 04-03-2003, 05:19 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by The Wanderer
I hope the French will be as vocal next time the Chinese and Russians kill some Tibetans or Chechnyans...
I don't know about the French (too much Iraq war pictures in the news consume the time which would be needed for other news)

But for Germany: German foreign minister Joschka Fischer urged Russia to stop human rights violations in chechnya for example. He also spoke about human rights violations in China but i didn't see the full story so i don't know if it was about tibet or not.

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