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Old 07-28-2005, 06:21 PM   #16
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Originally posted by Moonlit_Angel


I'd still support free speech, personally. Yes, there are people who, when I hear them talk, infuriate me with what they say-Neo-Nazis, homophobes, racists, etc., etc.-I think they're real assholes, no argument there. But they should still be entitled to speak their minds. Again I say, if we silence people like this, all it does is make them want to resort to more desperate, sometimes violent, means to get their views heard. Just avoid that now and let them say what's on their minds...hopefully most people would be smart enough to realize they sound like idiots and will refuse to agree with them.

Angela
And what if they decide to agree with them, instead?

I can't really agree with this rather rosy view that it's all just about the exchange of opinions and ideas, all of them equally valid and no distinctions made between just how much more disagreeable some ideas are than others. Opinions aren't just words - some have disastrous consequences and real potential to harm and destroy. IMO there have to be -some- boundaries with what a society is prepared to tolerate.
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Old 07-28-2005, 07:30 PM   #17
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And what if they decide to agree with them, instead?
If they agree with them, then I'd say that's quite sad and pathetic. But it's still their opinion. I won't like their views, and will definitely debate them with those people whenever the opportunity arises. But if they don't act on their beliefs, if they just hold them and say them and then move on with their lives, their views are still idiotic in my eyes, yes, but just saying something in and of itself isn't a crime.

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I can't really agree with this rather rosy view that it's all just about the exchange of opinions and ideas, all of them equally valid and no distinctions made between just how much more disagreeable some ideas are than others.
Well, all that stuff is subjective, though. What is considered a "valid" opinion is up to each person.

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Opinions aren't just words - some have disastrous consequences and real potential to harm and destroy. IMO there have to be -some- boundaries with what a society is prepared to tolerate.
The words can only be destructive and offensive if a person lets them be. Until then, they're just words. What you take them to mean is entirely your decision. Considering how many people populate this earth, getting them all to agree on what is and isn't offensive speech would be quite a difficult task.

Angela
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Old 07-28-2005, 08:29 PM   #18
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Originally posted by Moonlit_Angel
If they agree with them, then I'd say that's quite sad and pathetic. But it's still their opinion. I won't like their views, and will definitely debate them with those people whenever the opportunity arises. But if they don't act on their beliefs, if they just hold them and say them and then move on with their lives, their views are still idiotic in my eyes, yes, but just saying something in and of itself isn't a crime.
But what if in fact they -do- act on them? What if their ideas are all about taking some action? And what if people who hold these views get to the position where they have the power to influence thousands of people, change the society, or parts of society, according to their views? That's what I meant when I was talking about "destructive" opinions, rather than just somebody mouthing off offensive views in the privacy of their homes.

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The words can only be destructive and offensive if a person lets them be. Until then, they're just words. What you take them to mean is entirely your decision.
I doubt this is of any great consolation to the kids who are daily abused and victimised at school, or anyone who faces racial slurs and attacks. And does this mean that people who spout hatred are in fact relieved of any responsibility at all?
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Old 07-28-2005, 10:58 PM   #19
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But what if in fact they -do- act on them? What if their ideas are all about taking some action? And what if people who hold these views get to the position where they have the power to influence thousands of people, change the society, or parts of society, according to their views? That's what I meant when I was talking about "destructive" opinions, rather than just somebody mouthing off offensive views in the privacy of their homes.
I know. And once their words are put into action, and they start harming/killing people, stop them. But until then, if it's just some jerk mouthing off to be cute or stupid or something, he's not worth getting all riled up over.

And again, a person can only have influence if the public allows the person to influence them.

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I doubt this is of any great consolation to the kids who are daily abused and victimised at school, or anyone who faces racial slurs and attacks.
I was picked on in school, too. I got a lot of really nasty things said to me. Believe me, I know what kinds of cruel words can be uttered in school. But again, their words were only offensive to me if I let them be. If some kid's spouting racial slurs or other forms of harsh language, let him/her look like the ignorant person he/she is. I just really feel that the longer a person who has hatred in them is silent/bottled up, the worse their means become in their attempts to get their voices heard. And I just want to avoid that ahead of time.

Most people nowadays are kind-hearted, most people will hear someone spouting some prejudiced, hateful things and will feel that that person is a moron.

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And does this mean that people who spout hatred are in fact relieved of any responsibility at all?
Oh, no, I believe they'll indeed pay for the things they've said in some way, shape, or form.

Angela
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Old 07-29-2005, 12:10 AM   #20
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Originally posted by Moonlit_Angel
I know. And once their words are put into action, and they start harming/killing people, stop them. But until then, if it's just some jerk mouthing off to be cute or stupid or something, he's not worth getting all riled up over.
Problem is, often it turns out to be quite hard to stop them once it's started. And the change might not come all of a sudden - it might happen gradually so that nobody thinks to panic until it's too late.

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And again, a person can only have influence if the public allows the person to influence them.
Yes, and unfortunately the public is often very easily led, especially when someone taps into their fears and insecurities.

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Originally posted by Moonlit_Angel
Most people nowadays are kind-hearted, most people will hear someone spouting some prejudiced, hateful things and will feel that that person is a moron.
From my own experiences with people, it's entirely possible for a person to be decent and good and kind-hearted in most respects and still harbour countless prejudices that can be easily prodded by someone wishing to exploit them.
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Old 07-29-2005, 06:04 AM   #21
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There's probably another reason behind all this.
Obvisiouly Turkey hasn't got a Dictator who's taking his
country's millions and putting it in a Swiss bank account like a few African leaders are!!
This is the first thing that I thought after reading this story.
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Old 07-29-2005, 02:40 PM   #22
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Problem is, often it turns out to be quite hard to stop them once it's started. And the change might not come all of a sudden - it might happen gradually so that nobody thinks to panic until it's too late.
It's generally a lot easier to catch them in their early stages. And again, I'll start panicking when I see the person who normally has nothing more to say than the occasional harsh word first begin physically lashing out at people. There are signs along the way that allow you the chance for concern.

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Originally posted by Saracene
Yes, and unfortunately the public is often very easily led, especially when someone taps into their fears and insecurities.
If the public does start going with what one person says, then keep making your own voice heard. Eventually, somebody is bound to listen to you. Do everything in your power to prove the other person wrong.

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Originally posted by Saracene
From my own experiences with people, it's entirely possible for a person to be decent and good and kind-hearted in most respects and still harbour countless prejudices that can be easily prodded by someone wishing to exploit them.
Again, though, that's only if they allow this person to take hold of their prejudices.

Angela
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