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Old 03-24-2005, 09:22 AM   #31
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Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
Schools can however teach about different religions in order to provide a sense of understanding of the outside world.
yes they can teach howmany people died in religious clashes in the last 1500 years...

and how to CURB it....
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Old 03-24-2005, 09:27 AM   #32
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yes they can teach howmany people died in religious clashes in the last 1500 years...

and how to CURB it....
And how many people died in secular clashes.

What is your point outside an apparent hatred of religion?
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Old 03-25-2005, 02:35 AM   #33
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The philosophies of the different religions has brought a lot of good to society. They have brought some ethical rules that have been invaluable. They have asked important questions and will always have a valued place in society.

The problem is for too many people religion is a kneejerk reaction,
concerned more with the sins of other people than with their own.
If everybody who espouses a religious point of view behaved in accordance with it (including the humility that each religion demands) and concentrated on their own behavior, most of these issues might be resolved.

The danger with religion in the government or court of law is that most people interpret their religious beliefs to their own benefit. They can find a scriptural passage to support any bigotry, etc. They can find a scripture that excuses their behavior. When religion becomes a convenient excuse, it is flat out deadly.

So, no. Keep it out of the government and keep it out of the courts of law. The Constitution was established to protect unpopular thought. It was established to protect against the kneejerk mob reaction. It was established so thought would win out over emotion. It's an incredible document if we don't fuck it up for our own agendas. The Founding Fathers may have been religious, but above all they were rational. And religion is not always rational.
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Old 03-25-2005, 02:46 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally posted by AcrobatMan

yes they can teach howmany people died in religious clashes in the last 1500 years...

and how to CURB it....
To be fair it is when belief (or lack thereof) is enforced upon people that the greatest evil occurs. I for one look to the destruction of religious iconography and establishments by expansionist religions or political ideologies as some of the worst crimes comitted.

People should be afforded the freedom to belief or not believe whatever they want. Unless they injur somebody or infringe on rights. If I was given the choice between a world where people are killing eachother because of religious differences or a world where everybody was a non-believer by force then I would choose to live in the world of choice ~ same reason I view radical Islam as a loathsome ideology, it seeks to enslave with belief. Overall choice breeds moderation. We may have to deal with a good deal of crap from the minority ~ but the will of the majority always manages to keep it in check.
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Old 03-25-2005, 03:54 AM   #35
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


And how many people died in secular clashes.

What is your point outside an apparent hatred of religion?

secular clashes? wait a minute. did these clashes happen because these people were secular, or because they had conflicting interests? wars motivated by religious beliefs happened BECAUSE these people were religious.
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Old 03-25-2005, 04:11 AM   #36
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The crimes of communism against religious institutions and practitioners are a definite example of atheism being forced upon populations. As I said any system being forced upon people against their will by force is wrong and no system is immune from such abuse.
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Old 03-25-2005, 04:30 AM   #37
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
The crimes of communism against religious institutions and practitioners are a definite example of atheism being forced upon populations. As I said any system being forced upon people against their will by force is wrong and no system is immune from such abuse.
but atrocities throughtout a few decades of communist rule are dwarfed in comparison to a human history of religious oppression going back thousands of years.
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Old 03-25-2005, 04:36 AM   #38
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No argument here from a total nonbeliever, but people must have the freedom to choose. Without choice we are nothing but slaves.

Religion may have killed plenty of people, it may be killing plenty of people today ~ but it has produced some of the greatest thiinkers, the greatest discoveries and greatest expressions of the human spirit in all of history. I do not think that you can just eliminate that avenue of human expression without massive concequence. There may come a time when religion ceases to be ~ but that must be through the will of individual people making their own choice about what they want.
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Old 03-25-2005, 04:38 AM   #39
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but atrocities throughtout a few decades of communist rule are dwarfed in comparison to a human history of religious oppression going back thousands of years.
low long has communism been around?

I guess we should calc the stats : dead bodies/over number of years
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Old 03-25-2005, 04:42 AM   #40
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come on now, numbers from the crusades alone would be enough to sweep off the numbers from (edit) religious communist oppression. in the larger sense, communism will be more of fad that lasted one century, in comparison to thousands of years of history
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Old 03-25-2005, 04:43 AM   #41
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Communism has killed (since 1917) around 100 million people, but it is only a minority of these who were killed for their religious belief. We must also weigh in the supression of religion when considering how bad such things can be.

I genuinely think that when a bunch of fanatical atheists put their minds to wiping out belief they are capable of equal barbarity as the most zealous believer ~ reason being human nature; the driving force of such action.
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Old 03-25-2005, 06:14 AM   #42
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For a good account of the crimes and atrocities of Communism throughout the world, read The Black Book of Communism. It is a well researched scholarly book written by a group of French schoalrs and published by Harvard Univ. Press.
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Old 03-25-2005, 08:04 AM   #43
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Originally posted by all_i_want
secular clashes? wait a minute. did these clashes happen because these people were secular, or because they had conflicting interests? wars motivated by religious beliefs happened BECAUSE these people were religious.
No, they happen because of conflicting interest.

The religious aspect merely defines the opposing groups.
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Old 03-25-2005, 08:18 AM   #44
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


No, they happen because of conflicting interest.

The religious aspect merely defines the opposing groups.

while this might be true, and that leaders of groups and nation-states always have opposing interests deemed worthy of warfare, isn't it also true that leaders of said groups often use religious fervor, the idea that you're fighting for God, as a method of inciting the masses to mobilize in their favor? do you think that there is any secular interest that could persuade people to strap bombs to themselves and blow up night clubs or fly airplanes into buildings? only God, or an interpretation of God, can do that.

the fault does not lie with God, i don't think; but i do think it lies with religion, which is a system for explaining and relating to God.
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Old 03-25-2005, 08:56 AM   #45
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while this might be true, and that leaders of groups and nation-states always have opposing interests deemed worthy of warfare, isn't it also true that leaders of said groups often use religious fervor, the idea that you're fighting for God, as a method of inciting the masses to mobilize in their favor? do you think that there is any secular interest that could persuade people to strap bombs to themselves and blow up night clubs or fly airplanes into buildings? only God, or an interpretation of God, can do that.
The "glory of the motherland" got many to sacrifice their lives.
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