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Old 09-05-2005, 08:16 PM   #31
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Freedom IS Free

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Originally posted by VertigoGal


I generally agree with your other points, but this is just bigotry. The state is not the moral authority, thank you very much. Your religion may not recognize gay marriage, but other people shouldn't be subject to that.

(haha, this thread is turning into a gay marriage thead )
Oh yes, I'm a bigot because I don't agree with gay marriage.

I do not refer to the state as a big facist regime. A US state is run by the people. The people of the state decide the individual laws there. If the collective can't be a moral authority than you do not recognize what society really is.
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Old 09-05-2005, 08:25 PM   #32
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Just like the collective moral authority that said segregation was a-okay way back when.
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Old 09-05-2005, 08:37 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by VertigoGal
Just like the collective moral authority that said segregation was a-okay way back when.
The thought it was ok back then. They did. It was wrong.

People thought the Crusades were alright too. It was wrong.

But people will look back on the gay marriage issue and not think that people were wrong for wanting to defend what they thought was right. I am of course referring to those that believe that marriage is only between a man and a woman. It is not hateful to defend my conception of marriage. So don't even try to compare gay marriage and segregation.
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Old 09-05-2005, 08:42 PM   #34
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Of course they're different issues, but your concept of a "collective moral authority" can't only apply part of the time. It wasn't okay for your first 2 examples because "it was wrong" but it's okay to have a collective moral authority concerning gay marriage because your opinion is "right."

All this BS about defending yourself is nuts, gays aren't hurting you. No one's trying to take away your right to think they aren't moral. To be honest, the state shouldn't even be granting marriages in the religious sense, they should be granting civil unions. Churches (*separate* from the state) can marry or refuse to marry whoever they like.
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Old 09-05-2005, 08:48 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sonoftelepunk
But people will look back on the gay marriage issue and not think that people were wrong for wanting to defend what they thought was right. I am of course referring to those that believe that marriage is only between a man and a woman.
Ah, but when people hear this argument and yet fail to find any logical reasons as to why they don't agree with it being legal (and yes, I'm being frank here-I really do have yet to see a logical reason against legalizing gay marriage), then those people will have some questions about why they were so opposed to the concept.

to VertigoGal's post, too.

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Old 09-05-2005, 08:51 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by VertigoGal


All this BS about defending yourself is nuts, gays aren't hurting you. No one's trying to take away your right to think they aren't moral. To be honest, the state shouldn't even be granting marriages in the religious sense, they should be granting civil unions. Churches (*separate* from the state) can marry or refuse to marry whoever they like.
I didn't say that gay people hurt me. I said that I am defending my conception of marriage. So let's see, that leaves the bulk of your message null.

The US Constitution does not say that there is freedom from religion, It says freedom of religion. And yes, being athiest is considered on equal footing with those that believe in God in the eyes of government. Now, before you say "but Teh GOVErnmEnt is All pRo-God n STuff!11!", I will tell you that the government is more representative of a religious discourse because most of the country is Christian or otherwise believes in God.

All that said, The state should be granting marriages because it is not using it so much in the sense of a religious union as a civil union with a different name. A marriage is just a secular of a word as civil union is.
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Old 09-05-2005, 09:39 PM   #37
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Freedom IS Free

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Originally posted by Sonoftelepunk
Oh yes, I'm a bigot because I don't agree with gay marriage.
That sounds about right.

Bigot.

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Old 09-05-2005, 09:43 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sonoftelepunk
I didn't say that gay people hurt me. I said that I am defending my conception of marriage. So let's see, that leaves the bulk of your message null.
Indeed. I defend my concept of marriage too, in an ideal world where heteros are not allowed to divorce, birth control of any kind is banned (including the rhythm method), and if you and/or your spouse (because, after all, fornication is banned too) look lustfully at each other, you belong in hell. Don't forget that hole in the sheet too.

Ah...the good old days of medieval Europe.

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Old 09-06-2005, 12:23 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by financeguy


I am not singling out Vienna (I love the city) but let us not pretend that there are not racist attitudes among some of its inhabitants. Again, just in the interests of fairness.
Excuse me, you´re right. I forgot to say rich.

Rich people are very welcome.
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Old 09-06-2005, 12:32 AM   #40
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Freedom IS Free

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Originally posted by Sonoftelepunk
You want oppressed poor? Go to India.
To India?

Poor, yes. But oppressed? I would say that some people in India (except those at the lower end of the caste system) enjoy at least as much personal freedom like Americans.

Ridiculous.
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Old 09-06-2005, 05:41 AM   #41
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Freedom IS Free

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Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars


To India?

Poor, yes. But oppressed? I would say that some people in India (except those at the lower end of the caste system) enjoy at least as much personal freedom like Americans.

Ridiculous.
The lower end of the caste system is the largest block of India's poor. Not only poor, but a social system that essentially says you should remain there.
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Old 09-06-2005, 06:06 PM   #42
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I have not been able to post anyresponses here for a couple of days, as I have been busy with work, family, etc.
And after reading and re-reading my original post, I can see maybe i did not make myself as clear as I might have given some time to ponder more clearly my own thoughts.....so I will add some more comments here.

When I say "I feel oppressed by my own government" I say so after the fact that "my own government spends 75% of the federal budget ( my tax money) on the military, leaving the rest to be split up (25%) on education, police, roads etc.
75% !!! on new fighter planes and new means to kill people.
I do not think that killing more and more people is a good way to win friends and influence people. There are 37 million people in the U.S. at or well below the poverty level, and all of the U.S. social programs get cut more and more everytime the federal budget is up for legislation.

This is absolutely disgusting in my opinion.
And when one says anything about the enomormous military budget...one gets the "well freedom isn't free" line...I say that is complete bullshit.

We Americans THINK we have free speech here in the media, but we do not. In comparison to Canada we fall very short in the TV media as for as "free speech" goes. For instance, after 10 PM EST in Canada, you can turn on any commercial TV station and see the Sopranos un-censored albeit with commercials , you can see "The Osbournes" completely un-censored.
You want soft porn? after 10 PM on regular TV, you may have that, too.

IF I want the news, I cannot rely on the national news from American broadcasters..so afraid of asking ANY relevent questions...I must watch The BBC news...amazing what real freedom of the press is.

I love freedom, and liberty..but I do not need any government to give that to me...I have both already, as does everybody in the world, no matter where you live. The government can only opress you from realizing the full potential of freedom that you already have....can never give freedom to you.

I, as an American, am sick of being lied to by my government, and am sick of my taxes being used to kill and destroy, when there is so much poverty and desperation in the world.
The "war on terror " cannot be won with bullets and bombs..there's no way.
It CAN be won with running water, health care, and electricity and a HOME to use all the above in.

75% of the budget to actually IMPROVE life for all, everywhere, seems like a great way to win friends and influence people to me. And I will do all *I* can as an American to influence my government to change it's ways.

P.S To immigrate to Canada, you need 1500 dollars (U.S.) paperwork filled out, chest xrays a medical exam (because the Canadian govt. gives healthcare to it's citizens, they want to insure you are not extremely sick upon entering)
Once in country and have these papers filled out, you can get a work permit (or get a work permit first if you don't have the 1500 dollars..they allow that)

There are a few more steps....not hard at all.
How do I know this? I was going to immigrate a few years ago, but decided to renig due to family concernes here in the U.S. OH and you can file for dual citizenship as well.....
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Old 09-06-2005, 06:15 PM   #43
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Freedom IS Free

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Originally posted by nbcrusader


The lower end of the caste system is the largest block of India's poor. Not only poor, but a social system that essentially says you should remain there.
referring to political oppression, not to poverty and the social system in India which is surely a tuff thing. There is a stable government, and in other states people are more politically oppressed, but I wouldn´t say that of India.
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Old 09-06-2005, 06:41 PM   #44
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Freedom IS Free

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Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars


referring to political oppression, not to poverty and the social system in India which is surely a tuff thing. There is a stable government, and in other states people are more politically oppressed, but I wouldn´t say that of India.
There is a social oppression of the poor in India. Though the Caste system is officially illegal, it is still widely practiced. And I do believe that there is a degree of political oppression..in that a member of the 'untouchable' caste, could never reach a political job. That may just be a societal hinderance...I don't know.
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Old 09-06-2005, 06:42 PM   #45
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neverman, I don't really understand your perception of freedom. You're against censorship, which, although restrictive, is in place to prevent parents having to worry about their kids seeing porn. However, you're all for national health care and university programs which result in fewer economic freedoms, but are in place to prevent you having to worry about paying for those things. Is there a difference between personal and economic freedoms?

Or maybe you'd like the tax rate to stay the same, and simply have it spent on something other than fighter jets, in which case I'd agree with you.
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