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Old 10-03-2003, 05:32 PM   #46
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the term racist should not be tossed around lightly. Nor should racist remarks. I never listen to Rush, so I took this incident as a 1 time thing. As a one time thing it wasn't racist to me, just poorly worded and not explained by him. Some over-reacted, but if he has a history, people were probably just waiting for him to mess up.
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Old 10-04-2003, 12:13 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
The guy's a racist hipocrite ass and gives conservatives a bad name. But yet they still listen to him and defend him, I'll never get it...
Please listen for yourself to the words of the racist hypocrite....

http://mfile.akamai.com/5020/wmv/rus...pn090703_q.asx

For the record...as a conservative who has listened to his show, I find some of what he says not politically correct. I do not think he is a racist, but he has made remarks that i would not want my students or children to say.

Listen though and tell me this sounds like a racist?
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Old 10-04-2003, 12:20 AM   #48
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


I don't listen to Rush and don't feel this thread is about supporting him. Given the repugnant status of being a racist, I do find that some groups toss this term about recklessly. It is a clear example of racial politics in this country.
I wasn't speaking of this thread specifically, just in general.

Is it thrown around too recklessly, probably a little, not as much as some people would have you believe, they always say there's some nugget of truth behind everything. I guess it depends on your definition of racist, what's yours?
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Old 10-04-2003, 12:26 AM   #49
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And finally....someone looks at it rationally:

[Q]Rush Limbaugh Was Right
Donovan McNabb isn't a great quarterback, and the media do overrate him because he is black.
By Allen Barra
Posted Thursday, October 2, 2003, at 3:33 PM PT



Limbaugh leaves over unfair football flap

In his notorious ESPN comments last Sunday night, Rush Limbaugh said he never thought the Philadelphia Eagles' Donovan McNabb was "that good of a quarterback."

If Limbaugh were a more astute analyst, he would have been even harsher and said, "Donovan McNabb is barely a mediocre quarterback." But other than that, Limbaugh pretty much spoke the truth. Limbaugh lost his job for saying in public what many football fans and analysts have been saying privately for the past couple of seasons.

Let's review: McNabb, he said, is "overrated ... what we have here is a little social concern in the NFL. The media has been very desirous that a black quarterback can do well—black coaches and black quarterbacks doing well."

"There's a little hope invested in McNabb, and he got a lot of credit for the performance of his team that he didn't deserve. The defense carried this team."

Let's take the football stuff first. For the past four seasons, the Philadelphia Eagles have had one of the best defenses in the National Football League and have failed to make it to the Super Bowl primarily because of an ineffective offense—an offense run by Donovan McNabb. McNabb was a great college quarterback, in my estimation one of the best of the '90s while at Syracuse. (For the record, I helped persuade ESPN Magazine, then called ESPN Total Sports, to put him on the cover of the 1998 college-football preview issue.) He is one of the most talented athletes in the NFL, but that talent has not translated into greatness as a pro quarterback.

McNabb has started for the Eagles since the 2000 season. In that time, the Eagles offense has never ranked higher than 10th in the league in yards gained. In fact, their 10th-place rank in 2002 was easily their best; in their two previous seasons, they were 17th in a 32-team league. They rank 31st so far in 2003.

In contrast, the Eagles defense in those four seasons has never ranked lower than 10th in yards allowed. In 2001, they were seventh; in 2002 they were fourth; this year they're fifth. It shouldn't take a football Einstein to see that the Eagles' strength over the past few seasons has been on defense, and Limbaugh is no football Einstein, which is probably why he spotted it.

The news that the Eagles defense has "carried" them over this period should be neither surprising nor controversial to anyone with access to simple NFL statistics—or for that matter, with access to a television. Yet, McNabb has received an overwhelming share of media attention and thus the credit. Now why is this?

Let's look at a quarterback with similar numbers who also plays for a team with a great defense. I don't know anyone who would call Brad Johnson one of the best quarterbacks in pro football—which is how McNabb is often referred to. In fact, I don't know anyone who would call Brad Johnson, on the evidence of his 10-year NFL career, much more than mediocre. Yet, Johnson's NFL career passer rating, as of last Sunday, is 7.3 points higher than McNabb's (84.8 to 77.5), he has completed his passes at a higher rate (61.8 percent to 56.4 percent), and has averaged significantly more yards per pass (6.84 to 5.91). McNabb excels in just one area, running, where he has gained 2,040 yards and scored 14 touchdowns to Johnson's 467 and seven. But McNabb has also been sacked more frequently than Johnson—more than once, on average, per game, which negates much of the rushing advantage.

In other words, in just about every way, Brad Johnson has been a more effective quarterback than McNabb and over a longer period.


And even if you say the stats don't matter and that a quarterback's job is to win games, Johnson comes out ahead. Johnson has something McNabb doesn't, a Super Bowl ring, which he went on to win after his Bucs trounced McNabb's Eagles in last year's NFC championship game by a score of 27-10. The Bucs and Eagles were regarded by everyone as having the two best defenses in the NFL last year. When they played in the championship game, the difference was that the Bucs defense completely bottled up McNabb while the Eagles defense couldn't stop Johnson.

In terms of performance, many NFL quarterbacks should be ranked ahead of McNabb. But McNabb has represented something special to all of us since he started his first game in the NFL, and we all know what that is.

Limbaugh is being excoriated for making race an issue in the NFL. This is hypocrisy. I don't know of a football writer who didn't regard the dearth of black NFL quarterbacks as one of the most important issues in the late '80s and early '90s. (The topic really caught fire after 1988, when Doug Williams of the Washington Redskins became the first black quarterback to win a Super Bowl.)

So far, no black quarterback has been able to dominate a league in which the majority of the players are black. To pretend that many of us didn't want McNabb to be the best quarterback in the NFL because he's black is absurd. To say that we shouldn't root for a quarterback to win because he's black is every bit as nonsensical as to say that we shouldn't have rooted for Jackie Robinson to succeed because he was black. (Please, I don't need to be reminded that McNabb's situation is not so difficult or important as Robinson's—I'm talking about a principle.)

Consequently, it is equally absurd to say that the sports media haven't overrated Donovan McNabb because he's black. I'm sorry to have to say it; he is the quarterback for a team I root for. Instead of calling him overrated, I wish I could be admiring his Super Bowl rings. But the truth is that I and a great many other sportswriters have chosen for the past few years to see McNabb as a better player than he has been because we want him to be.

Rush Limbaugh didn't say Donovan McNabb was a bad quarterback because he is black. He said that the media have overrated McNabb because he is black, and Limbaugh is right. He didn't say anything that he shouldn't have said, and in fact he said things that other commentators should have been saying for some time now. I should have said them myself. I mean, if they didn't hire Rush Limbaugh to say things like this, what they did they hire him for? To talk about the prevent defense? [/Q]

Brad Johnson....a white Quarterback has put up better numbers than Donovan McNabb for a longer period of time. He has won a Super Bowl, yet the press does not give him the attention because why? He is white. Two quarterbacks on teams with GREAT defenses. McNabb gets the press....and WHY?

Why is it so wrong to question?
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Old 10-04-2003, 12:26 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox


Please listen for yourself to the words of the racist hypocrite....

http://mfile.akamai.com/5020/wmv/rus...pn090703_q.asx

For the record...as a conservative who has listened to his show, I find some of what he says not politically correct. I do not think he is a racist, but he has made remarks that i would not want my students or children to say.

Listen though and tell me this sounds like a racist?
So this erases all other words that came out of his mouth? Please. I listen to his show as well, it's that getting to know the enemy type thing , and the guys a racist. And he's a hypocrite, just the latest drug issue proves that.

Let me pose the same question I did earlier, what makes a person racist?
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Old 10-04-2003, 12:32 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox


Why is it so wrong to question?
It's not, and don't think anyone really said it was. I think the way it was stated wasn't exactly questioning the media, I think it's nice spin people want to put on it. Honestly I think this whole thing was blown out of proportion but it opens up a discussion on the reality of someone many conservatives see as a hero.
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Old 10-04-2003, 12:34 AM   #52
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[Q]Main Entry: rac·ism
Pronunciation: 'rA-"si-z&m also -"shi-
Function: noun
Date: 1936
1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
2 : racial prejudice or discrimination
- rac·ist /-sist also -shist/ noun or adjective [/Q]

Well, for one, his comments last SUNDAY do not fit the definition. he did not imply nor say that McNabb was deficient because of his race. He said the press gave him more credit because of his race. The statistics in the article I posted above, demonstrate that the point was a valid one.

I am not debating his show here. I am looking specifically at the content of last weeks football show, and his prior comments on that show.

You may feel he is a racist, but using the definion that I provided from Webster's dictionary, he is not.
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Old 10-04-2003, 12:37 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar

And he's a hypocrite, just the latest drug issue proves that.

this has nothing to do with his comments on Sunday the topic of the thread.

The full quote, as I posted it, clearly shows he was pointing the finger at the media and the NFL, and not that McNabb was a good or bad quarterback based on his race.
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Old 10-04-2003, 12:39 AM   #54
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How is it I find myself yet again defending another person that I really do not like on this board.....sheesh...night
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Old 10-04-2003, 12:45 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox

You may feel he is a racist, but using the definion that I provided from Webster's dictionary, he is not.
Based on his comments on this particular show, I'll agree with you, but in the rest of his life, sorry he fits every way into that definition and then some.
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Old 10-04-2003, 12:48 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox


this has nothing to do with his comments on Sunday the topic of the thread.
You're right, I'm sorry.

Quote:
How is it I find myself yet again defending another person that I really do not like on this board.....sheesh...night
That I'm not sure, but you better stop... .
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Old 10-04-2003, 01:14 AM   #57
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Dread,

The problem with Rush and Barra is that they see race in sports.

Sports is better when it unites us not devides us.


Quote:
Black QBs -- again
With McNabb and Stewart leading their teams into the conference championships, will athletic quarterbacks outduel their white counterparts?

- - - - - - - - - - - -
By Allen Barra


Jan. 23, 2002 | Looking for themes in this week's NFL final four, the press twisted every which way they could to avoid the obvious: white, drop-back quarterbacks vs. black, scrambling quarterbacks. Remember last season when everyone was talking about the new wave of black "athletic" quarterbacks, running quarterbacks, who were going to revolutionize the game? Well, the Baltimore Ravens rolled in with one of the great fluke teams of all time (in two seasons, their supposedly invincible defense faced only one quarterback ranked in the top 10, and that was Brett Favre, who beat them with four touchdown passes) and squashed that idea. Now, it's back as the two best running quarterbacks, the two greatest athletes at the position, Pittsburgh's Kordell Stewart and Philadelphia's Donovan McNabb, are both just one game short of the Super Bowl, and no one wants to say it for fear of, you know, the black-white thing.

I've never been able to decide for sure if I thought that black athletes, on the whole, had some special trait that gave them an advantage in games of speed with white, Hispanic or Asian athletes. I am fairly certain that if I did I'd keep my mouth shut about it. You're not supposed to notice things like the fact that, in a society where blacks comprise about 10 percent of the population, there are 15 black wide receivers and defensive backs for every white player. Now, inevitably, blacks are moving into the last bastion of white player supremacy, the quarterback position.


I know, I know, there are lots of reasons why this is happening besides racial ones. First, whites are withdrawing themselves from the American athletic gene pool at a remarkable rate. I wrote in this column last year that most males in my family played one, two and even three sports in high school, but when we got together for a family picnic we found scarcely a single kid from the next generation who played anything but soccer and who showed precious little interest in that. I said that I thought much of it had to do with the increasing laziness and narcissism of middle-class white kids, who spend most of their free time in solitary games like skateboarding or video, and who simply don't want to take crap from coaches or have to compete with black kids who are hungrier. A man in Tennessee whose family had played college football for three generations and whose son now refuses to watch football on TV tells me the situation is even worse than I thought: "What you don't understand is that this generation of white kids has gotten so noncompetitive they'd be dropping out of team sports even if there were no Hispanic or black kids out there with more desire."

He might be right, and maybe I'm looking for too broad an explanation for the disappearing white quarterback. It's entirely possible that what we're seeing on the field is the result of a trend that's become more and more pervasive in high school and big-time college football. As late as the early '70s, a lot of quarterbacks in major college programs called their own plays, or at least most of them did. As the game became more sophisticated or at least as coaches took over more and more control, the quarterback who could think and react on his feet began to disappear. The majority of white quarterbacks still come from relatively pampered programs where you have a quarterback coach while you're still in high school. The majority of black quarterbacks still come from backgrounds where they have to pretty much learn to shift for themselves at an early age. By the time they reach the college level, many black kids playing quarterback have established their game pattern and most smart college coaches are pretty much content to let them go with it. I think what's happening in pro football over the last several seasons is that it's becoming as automated and predictable as the college game and coaches have decided the best antidote for smothering defenses with 340-pound sumo-wrestler linemen has been the spontaneity and unpredictability of the great scrambling black passers.









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Old 10-04-2003, 11:32 AM   #58
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If it were true that race is not a factor in sports Deep, then explain why Brad Johnson is not considered one of the best quarterbacks in the NFL. Why does the press give McNabb, a player with worse stats the coverage. The fact is, he criticized the press for BIASED reporting and he was accurate in his point. It was not a statement about McNabb being inferior because of the color of his skin. If that were the statement, then I would agree with everyone here, that he should have been removed from the show. Point is, it was a valid point about the press, and because he went after the press his comments have been mischaracterized.

I think the bigger story should have bene his comments on Week 1 but, the press would not make an issue out of the man making positive comments.
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Old 10-04-2003, 11:44 AM   #59
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The man has a history of making ugly racial remarks. I am not sure that what he said here was racist per se, but I do believe he is a racist, and has made enough appalling comments to warrant the label.

If you think that statements such as these:

Quote:
"Spike, if you're going to do that, let's complete the education experience. You should tell them that they should loot the theater, and then blow it up on their way out."

In a similar vein, here is Limbaugh's mocking take on the National Assn. for the Advancement of Colored People, a group with a 90-year commitment to nonviolence: "The NAACP should have riot rehearsal. They should get a liquor store and practice robberies."
are not racist, then I don't know what to say to you.
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Old 10-04-2003, 11:54 AM   #60
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This has NOTHING to do with his remarks last Sunday. The controversy was not about his remarks on his radio show. The controversy is about his comments LAST SUNDAY. They were honest and accurate comments that have been completely twisted because he went after the NFL and the media. For maybe the second or third time, I am saying I am addressing his comments LAST WEEK.

If you do not like him for his past comments, fine....but his comments last weekend were not racist and the sharks in the media would love to make us think it was. More $$$ sells papers ect.

[Q]October 03, 2003, 9:43 a.m.
Rushing to Judgment
NFL and media reality.

By Robert Alt

By now you've heard the disheartening news (probably multiple times): Following cries of racism, Rush Limbaugh resigned late Wednesday from his post as a part-time ESPN commentator. Yet even the most cursory review of his comments suggests that his words did not target any suspect class, unless network executives perpetually wallowing in white guilt have achieved minority status.

The media's rapid response to the news betrayed their obvious glee. CNN featured the headline on its website, "Is Rush Racist?" — and the network led with the Rush story ahead of its ordinary litany of trumped-up scandals du jour. Then the other shoe dropped: Word got out that The National Enquirer was about to report that Limbaugh was a pill popper. Demonstrating the height of journalistic integrity, the networks offered this information as if it came from the newspaper of record (which paper, as luck would have it, featured that very story on its website). Not to miss out on the fun, presidential wannabes Wesley Clark, Howard Dean, and the Al Sharpton called for ESPN to sack Limbaugh, and the NAACP referred to his remarks as "bigoted and ignorant."

Rush makes his living driving network executives and Democratic presidential hopefuls into fits, but this was different. What exactly did Rush say to cause all this commotion? In his Sunday commentary, Rush argued that Philadelphia Eagles quarterback Donovan McNabb is overrated. While many have disputed this assessment, it is Rush's reason for believing that McNabb's performance has been exaggerated that generated the controversy. Specifically, he said:

I think what we've had here is a little social concern in the NFL. The media has been very desirous that a black quarterback do well. . . . There is a little hope invested in McNabb, and he got a lot of credit for the performance of this team that he didn't deserve. The defense carried this team.

First, it is useful to note what Rush did not say. He did not say that African Americans are less qualified or less capable of performing at quarterback. Nor did he say that McNabb's alleged poor performance correlated with his race. Rather, he suggests that McNabb has a better reputation than perhaps he deserves because the media wants black quarterbacks to do well — that is, because the white establishment wishes black athletes well. Of course, this is not the first time that statements like this have been made. For example, to this day it is debated whether Larry Byrd deserves his reputation as among the best basketball players of all time, or whether his status is overrated because he is white.

Sports have long been an area where African Americans have enjoyed great success as a result of merit, and, at least recently, reduced institutional barriers to entry. Indeed, from a strictly statistical perspective, African Americans are overrepresented in the NFL compared to their percentage of the U.S. population. This staggering success has largely been a function of (my old professor at the University of Chicago's Law School) Richard Epstein's law: in a competitive workplace, employers who discriminate based upon arbitrary characteristics such as race will lose — in this case both games and revenues.

Despite the general success of black athletes in the NFL, there remains the perception that there is a statistical imbalance in the number of black quarterbacks. But this may be more perception than reality. A quick review of the league shows that in 2002, there were 8 black quarterbacks starting out of a possible 32 spots. In 2003, the numbers remain the same (although there would actually be 9 starting black quarterbacks if Michael Vick was not on the injured list). At 25 percent, this would suggest that African Americans are again overrepresented in the position of quarterback compared with their representation in the total U.S. population.

Whether the number of black quarterbacks represents a perceived or real deficit in black "representation" is largely irrelevant, however, because the public wants to see more black quarterbacks. A study produced by economists at Duke University found that Monday Night Football games featuring at least one black quarterback generate significantly higher ratings. And when they say significant, they mean it. In 1998, for example, an average of two million more viewers tuned in on Monday nights when at least one quarterback was black. This difference translates into millions of dollars in advertising revenues. While they considered that this viewer preference may be a proxy for other player or team attributes, the study concludes that the difference is motivated by viewers exhibiting "a taste for diversity." The moral of the story is simple: The NFL and the networks have a strong financial interest in promoting black quarterbacks. Or, to use the words of El Rushbo, the media is desirous of successful black quarterbacks.

But one does not need a regression analysis to see that Americans cheer black achievement. That Rush suggests that this cheerleading may be unwarranted as applied to specific a specific athlete cannot negate this truth, and should not be used to cast Limbaugh as a racist.[/Q]

Now if you cannot understand the point I am making......I do not know what to say to you...Back at ya! LOL
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