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Old 06-25-2005, 12:53 AM   #1
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Free Speech Curbed Right Here

Oh you have to love the "religious vilification laws" put into effect in where I live, really makes for some very good demonstrations of why stifling free speech will only lead to political prisoners and abuse of the law.
Quote:
Pastor prefers jail over apology
By Mariza Fiamengo
June 22, 2005

A CHRISTIAN pastor who has been ordered to apologise for vilifying Muslims says he will go to jail rather than say sorry for his comments.

Victorian Civil and Administrative Tribunal (VCAT) deputy president Michael Higgins ordered two pastors of an evangelical order, Catch the Fire Ministry, to apologise for comments they made in a speech, on a website and in a newsletter.

In a landmark ruling, the tribunal found Muslims were vilified by claims that Muslims were training to take over Australia, encouraging domestic violence and that Islam was an inherently violent religion.

The case was the first to be heard by VCAT since the Racial and Religious Tolerance Act took effect in Victoria at the start of 2002.

Outside the tribunal, Danny Nalliah – one of the pastors taken to VCAT by the Islamic Council – described himself as a martyr and said he would go to jail before apologising.

"Right from the inception, we have said that this law is a foul law, this law is not a law which brings unity," Pastor Nalliah said.

"It causes disunity and as far as we are concerned right from the beginning we have stated we will not apologise.

"We will go to prison for standing for the truth and not sacrifice our freedom and freedom to speak."

He said the Evangelical group had nothing against Muslims and its comments were taken out of context.

Judge Higgins said an apology was "appropriate" as the intention of the Victorian legislation was to protect freedom of speech, while placing limits on such freedom by prohibiting the vilification of persons or classes of persons.

He said he took into account that the pastors were of good character, but their passionate religious beliefs caused them to transgress the law.

Catch the Fire is appealing the VCAT decision in the Victorian Supreme Court.
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This law goes against the principles of free speech, it isn't about preventing violence or slander against people it is about granting unwarranted protection to ideas, making them free from criticism under threat of legal action for "vilification". The case itself was interesting because Daniel Scot one of the pastors has had experiences with Islamic persecution, the nature of the statements and the context of an evangelical group who view Islam as an illegitimate religious philosophy as well as those driving for the procecution (the Islamic Council of Victoia).

In any case making statements that Islam was a violent and intollerent religion, that there were Muslims who desired to take over Australia and commit violence against non-Muslims can now be considered illegal speech.

But what I really find strange is that there do seem to be Muslims in Australia, in fact in Victoria, who do want to do such things and are out there encouraging their followers to adopt those views and take those actions
Quote:
LITERATURE filled with hatred of Christians, Jews and non-Muslims is being sold at a mosque near a Melbourne home raided by ASIO.

Books sold at the store attached to the Brunswick mosque tell Muslims they should "hate and take as enemies" non-Muslims, reject Jews and Christians, and learn to hate in order to properly love Allah.

The texts say Muslims should learn military tactics and suggest that if a person speaks ill of Islam it is acceptable to kill them.

They urge Muslims to strike back against "the barbaric onslaught from their enemies -- the Jews, Christians, atheists, secularists and others".

Pages are devoted to legitimising episodes of violence against Jews who insult Islam.

"A Jewish woman used to abuse the Prophet and disparage him. A man strangled her till she died. The Apostle of Allah declared that no recompense was payable for her blood," one book recounts.

A similar example is given of a man killing the mother of his two children because she "disparaged the Prophet"; he also was declared clear of any crime.

"When they (non-Muslims) meet you, they say, 'We believe', but when they are alone, out of frustration and rage, they bite off the tips of their fingers because of you," one says.

"O you who believe! Do not take the Jews (Yahood) and Christians (Nasara) for friends (Awliyaa). They are Awliyaa to each other. And the one among you that turns to them is one of them."

Readers are instructed by the books not to feel compassion for non-Muslims, not to trust them, and not to speak well of them.

One book says faithful Muslims should learn military tactics.

The group of books were bought from the bookstore of the Islamic Information and Support Centre of Australia, which is in the same building as the Brunswick mosque. One, The Ideological Attack, describes "the Jews" as striving to corrupt the beliefs, morals and manners of Muslims.

"The Jews scheme and crave after possessing the Muslim lands, as well as the lands of others," it reads.

"Supported by a demonic global plan as well as unlimited financial backing, this attack aims at domination and hegemony over the Islamic world; dividing it, attacking it culturally and morally and perverting the true image of the religion.

"Therefore it is amongst the priorities of the Islamic call (da'wah) to break this attack and to counter it with every legitimate means of da'wah possible."

One text says of devotion to Allah: "As regards hatred for His sake this is an essential prerequisite for loving Him."

A book on "Muslims Living as Minorities" mentions Muslims fighting in Afghanistan and discusses "jihad", or holy war, as a collective and individual responsibility.

Another quotes classic anti-Semitic conspiracy text The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, stating Jews want to make Muslims "the ass of the chosen people".
link

Now some of this type of literature and speech is wrong because it promotes violence against sections of the community which is criminal. The two pastors were not inciting violence against those that subscribe to the Islamic faith they were merely stressing that they believe the religion of Islam was wrong, or that Islam and Muslims were influenced by jinn and not angels. It is making heresy a crime again. How far could these laws go and who will they apply too.

I want the right to criticise any thoughts and ideas freely and openly, it cannot be given protected status because it is religious and saying bad things about it will hurt a believers feelings. Can I say that that those who think anybody who disrespects Islam can be murdered are moon worshiping fuckers wihtout having both the fanatics and the law against me.
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Old 06-25-2005, 06:27 AM   #2
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This is terrible but it shouldn't be illegal.
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Old 06-25-2005, 10:41 AM   #3
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You can't make being an asshole illegal. As much as we'd like to, we just can't.
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Old 06-25-2005, 05:20 PM   #4
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I don't know. I think we should make being an asshole illegal, then it would be way easier to find parking spots.
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Old 06-25-2005, 06:19 PM   #5
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yeah, 'cause in jail i wouldn't have a car.
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Old 06-26-2005, 03:20 AM   #6
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How fuckiing predictable of you, a-wanderer. The guy was convicted of hate speech against Muslims, and it's not surprising in the least that you oppose this. Get a fucking life.
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Old 06-26-2005, 04:05 AM   #7
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Re: Free Speech Curbed Right Here

Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer

...the tribunal found Muslims were vilified by claims that Muslims were training to take over Australia, encouraging domestic violence and that Islam was an inherently violent religion....

...The case was the first to be heard by VCAT since the Racial and Religious Tolerance Act took effect in Victoria at the start of 2002....


...Danny Nalliah – one of the pastors taken to VCAT by the Islamic Council – described himself as a martyr and said he would go to jail before apologising.
-then-
"Right from the inception, we have said that this law is a foul law, this law is not a law which brings unity," Pastor Nalliah said.

"It causes disunity and as far as we are concerned right from the beginning we have stated we will not apologise....

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Old 06-26-2005, 05:49 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kieran McConville
How fuckiing predictable of you, a-wanderer. The guy was convicted of hate speech against Muslims, and it's not surprising in the least that you oppose this. Get a fucking life.
It is predictable: legal protection for religion removes an element of free speech, I am in favour of free speech. This little Bracks government experiment will show the world how these laws fail to bring the "unity and harmony" that they claim to bring by enforcing a speech code for public discourse. One point though I don't like the Catch the Fire ministries, the evangelical movement is a nuisance to me, the parts of it that support Answers in Genesis and the young earth creationist movement are doing a good job in destroying young minds interest in science and that is a very bad thing. But they should have the right to say what they want to say just like anybody who opposes their views should have the right to reply and answer their charges.

Of course your implication was that I support hate speech against Muslims to which I say you are wrong. I have no issue with people practicing their faith; Islam is just as illogical and crazy as the next legitimised cult but I make the distinction between Muslims practicing their faith as most people do and the more radical elements who do break the law and threaten the societies that they are avowed enemies of. But of course seeing that radical element and using the radical element qualifier rather than labelling all Muslims with the same brush (which is ignorant of the divisions and schools of thought all throughout the world; Shiite and Sunni, Salafi, Sufi, Deobandi, Wahabism etc) would probably make me an Islamophobe. I am not nor do I mindlessly attack Muslims for their beliefs or practicing their faith, I do willfully point out, criticise and vehemetly loath those radical elements who advocate murder, subjegation and a political system built around their own hardline beliefs. Secularism, pluralism, rationalism and humanism are my "pillars of thought" and I am an atheist. I don't really give a piss what you think my motivations are because you do not know me nor can you judge my character based upon a few thousand words.

how far could it go? could Phillip Adams be brought up on charges for saying that the Pope was responsible for hundreds of millions of AIDS deaths around the world because it offended Catholics?

What is your thought about the law? is it justified?
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Old 06-27-2005, 01:33 PM   #9
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"Tolerance" Acts. What a load of governmental bull
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Old 06-27-2005, 01:38 PM   #10
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I have reservations about legislation such as this, on free speech grounds.

There is a similar debate going on in the UK at the moment.
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