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Old 03-02-2005, 06:10 PM   #46
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Originally posted by speedracer


Well, if I must spell out the punchline in plain detail...Mr. Ultra-Fundamentalist would claim that he's being discriminated against because of his religiously-motivated views on homosexuality.
And he wouldn't have a case. There would be the umpteen amount of members who would be witness.


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Originally posted by speedracer

Besides historical precedent and analogies, you mean?

This thread is no longer just about those three guys, who probably should have just signed the nondiscrimination pact and postponed the day of reckoning. It's about college groups and their ability to govern themselves.
No still haven't seen it. I've seen one historical precedent and it wasn't the same. Ok if it's about college group's ability to govern themselves then they can govern themselves off campus. What's wrong with that. As long as they are on campus they have rules. Just like state governments have a federal government to answer to.


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Originally posted by speedracer

So according to standard nondiscrimination policies, the BLGTS club might be free to dismiss a nonreligious member who wanted to turn the group into a therapy group for changing sexual orientation, but they would not be able to dismiss a member who wanted to do the same if he declared that he was religiously motivated. A rather absurd state of affairs.
That makes no sense. That's like having someone join the chess club and want to change it into a checkers club. Sorry but your analogies just aren't working.


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Originally posted by speedracer

Well, the reason I brought up general frats in the first place is not because they discriminate during rush; it was because they categorically discriminate on the basis of gender. Ultimately, colleges allow them to stay because similar organizations exist for women. In a similar manner, if a gay Christian wants to join a Christian organization, but the evangelical group isn't tolerant of homosexuality, he or she can join a more liberal group or charter one.
Well my campus didn't actually allow frats or soroities on campus due to that and many other issues.

Honestly you can come up with the ifs and, or buts, it's not going to change the fact that you aren't going to join the club unless you want to be in the club. If you're going to join because you have an agenda, discrimination isn't going to stop you any more than not having the discrimination, and lawsuits happen if those safety nets are in place or not.
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Old 03-02-2005, 06:18 PM   #47
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Originally posted by Do Miss America

That makes no sense. That's like having someone join the chess club and want to change it into a checkers club.

That is the whole point. It is absurd to force campus clubs to admit members or adopt viewpoints or policies that would undermine their purposes. You seem to be happy to protect some clubs from this sort of intrusion, but not others.
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Old 03-02-2005, 06:24 PM   #48
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Re: Fraternity Sues To Keep Out Gays

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Originally posted by Irvine511


Alpha Iota Omega has only three members.
kinda says it all
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Old 03-02-2005, 06:26 PM   #49
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Originally posted by speedracer


That is the whole point. It is absurd to force campus clubs to admit members or adopt viewpoints or policies that would undermine their purposes. You seem to be happy to protect some clubs from this sort of intrusion, but not others.
What? You read something wrong. My point is no one in the club would want to change it to a checkers club, it's not a freaking checkers club, so no one else would go along. So the person joins and is bored or they don't join. They have no case.
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Old 03-02-2005, 06:51 PM   #50
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Originally posted by Do Miss America


What? You read something wrong. My point is no one in the club would want to change it to a checkers club, it's not a freaking checkers club, so no one else would go along. So the person joins and is bored or they don't join. They have no case.
Julie Catalano joined the Tufts Christian Fellowship a while back and discovered she was a lesbian. She applied for a leadership position and was told she could not voice approval of homosexuality as a leader of the group, in accordance with the group's understanding of the Bible. She was told that she could either remain as member and non-leader, or she could change her views and be a leader.

Catalano filed a discrimination complaint with the university, and TCF was decertified by the student government. The university recertified the group a few months later.

So yes, one person can raise a big fuss.
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Old 03-02-2005, 06:56 PM   #51
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If racist and anti-Semitic organizations are allowed on campus, then I'd say that homophobic Christian groups have a case.

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Old 03-02-2005, 07:17 PM   #52
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If racist and anti-Semitic organizations are allowed on campus, then I'd say that homophobic Christian groups have a case.

Melon
That should be for actual human beings in the student government or university administration to decide, based on the net contribution (positive or negative) they make to campus life.
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Old 03-02-2005, 10:17 PM   #53
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on second thought why do universities even get mixed up with colleges and fraternities in the first place
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Old 03-03-2005, 04:30 AM   #54
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on second thought why do universities even get mixed up with colleges and fraternities in the first place
At least at MIT, many fraternities and sororities have a very good record of helping their members cope with academic pressures, throwing non-fatal parties, running community service events and in general being positive forces on campus.

Also, it's not like frats and sororities are the only gender-discriminatory groups are campus. There are also sports club teams and single-sex performing and singing groups as well. Even at Harvard.
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Old 03-03-2005, 07:16 AM   #55
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Originally posted by nathan1977
the ACLU again seemed to think that private organizations had the right to define membership and governing ordinances.
This is the point. UNC is a public university. They are trying to receive public funds and other free services (web pages, ect).

The 3 members are playing the poor little Christians , discriminated and under seige by secular elitist academia. I'm dure they are junded by a Jerry Falwell type organization, Dobson, or some other radical christian organization. This fits right in with their new agenda of assault on universities and playing the victim.
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Old 03-03-2005, 08:02 AM   #56
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This is the point. UNC is a public university. They are trying to receive public funds and other free services (web pages, ect).
The private organization is the fraternity, not the university.
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Old 03-03-2005, 08:27 AM   #57
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The private organization is the fraternity, not the university.

i may be wrong, but most fraternities are given university housing and funds, all of which comes from taxpayers.
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Old 03-03-2005, 08:58 AM   #58
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Originally posted by Irvine511



i may be wrong, but most fraternities are given university housing and funds, all of which comes from taxpayers.
Usually fraternities/sororities (at both public and private colleges) are funded by their members and by their national organizations. If they have a house, it's usually owned by the national organization, and the members pay rent.

The school usually gives frats/sororities a voice in the student government, allows them to reserve rooms on campus, allows them to rush, advertise and hold events on campus, etc.

The point isn't so much about funding as it is about having school sanction and recognition. Many schools (private or public) have sweeping nondiscrimination policies. Nonetheless, they sanction groups that are inherently discriminatory but otherwise seem to serve some positive purpose.
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Old 03-03-2005, 09:51 AM   #59
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screw 'em... who the hell wants to join a frat that only has 3 members anyway? their parties must be killer
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Old 03-10-2005, 08:57 AM   #60
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U2 have always taken the hard line when it comes to gays, so what's wrong with fraternities suing to keep out gays? U2 have managed to keep gays out of the band for the last 25 years and they are all still the same 4 straight men.

Cheers,

J
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