France, Germany react to overthrow of Saddam - Page 4 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 04-11-2003, 09:47 AM   #46
ONE
love, blood, life
 
FizzingWhizzbees's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: the choirgirl hotel
Posts: 12,614
Local Time: 11:37 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by sharky
And I'll be damned if any country that didn't support us is now going to jump on the bandwagon now that American blood has been spilled to topple this tyrant.

As for the term racism being thrown around in this thread, be aware it’s a two-way street and the French said things about us too. Just leave this racism label out of this. We're debating the stance of leaders of different nations, not Freedom Fries and Freedon Toast.
But don't you think that the primary concern here should be the welfare of the Iraqi people? Surely if France or Russia or any other country which didn't support the war is able to help in a post-war Iraq then they should be welcomed?

Everyone insisted that the US didn't go to war to protect its own interests, but rather to free the Iraqi people from Saddam's rule, so I don't understand how people can now be arguing that other countries shouldn't benefit from America and Britain's war.
__________________

__________________
FizzingWhizzbees is offline  
Old 04-11-2003, 10:25 AM   #47
New Yorker
 
sharky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 2,637
Local Time: 06:37 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees


But don't you think that the primary concern here should be the welfare of the Iraqi people? Surely if France or Russia or any other country which didn't support the war is able to help in a post-war Iraq then they should be welcomed?

Everyone insisted that the US didn't go to war to protect its own interests, but rather to free the Iraqi people from Saddam's rule, so I don't understand how people can now be arguing that other countries shouldn't benefit from America and Britain's war.
In the end, yes you are right Fizz. We should be watching out for Iraq before any other country. I have more of an issue with the bandwagon jumping than the business side of this. Its really great that France and Russia support us now but where were they two months ago? If I recall, France specifically said they would veto ANY UN resolution by the US and UK, regardless of any proposed compromises by the US and UK, simply because those two countries would be sponsoring it.

On a side note, regardless of who it is going to help, the US and UK gov't are taking contract bids from companies to help rebuild Iraq. While the best interests of the Iraqi people should be the upmost concern, there is money to be made in this rebuilding process. Money for companies and money for employed Iraqi citizens. We did the same thing in Europe after WWII to help them rebuild.
__________________

__________________
sharky is offline  
Old 04-11-2003, 10:41 AM   #48
ONE
love, blood, life
 
FizzingWhizzbees's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: the choirgirl hotel
Posts: 12,614
Local Time: 11:37 AM
I don't recall France and Russia saying they would veto a resolution specifically because it was put down by the US and UK. I believe they said they would veto any resolution which authorised the use of military force against Iraq, of course that would be put down by the US and UK, but they woudl veto the resolution because of what it proposed, not who proposed it. I don't really think Russia and France have "jumped on the bandwagon" about this - after all, this whole thread was started by an article where all Chirac said was that he was happy to see the fall of Saddam.

I know it's likely that the UK and US will give contracts to US or UK companies, but I hope that they don't allow their desire for those companies to make money take precedence over the welfare of the Iraqi people.
__________________
FizzingWhizzbees is offline  
Old 04-11-2003, 01:45 PM   #49
New Yorker
 
sharky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 2,637
Local Time: 06:37 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees
I know it's likely that the UK and US will give contracts to US or UK companies, but I hope that they don't allow their desire for those companies to make money take precedence over the welfare of the Iraqi people.
This we agree on. [woah! warm fuzzies in FYM. or is that warm Fizzies?]
__________________
sharky is offline  
Old 04-11-2003, 02:25 PM   #50
Rock n' Roll Doggie
FOB
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 8,876
Local Time: 11:37 AM
One thing that should be obvious now is that the welfare of the Iraqi people has been far better served by the US/UK actions than those of Germany, France, and Russia. If we had taken Frances lead on this, Saddam would still be in power and the only questions would be, Would Saddam get Nuclear Weapons later this year or next year? How many tens of thousands of Iraqi civilians would die this year, as they have in past years, do to the oppression of Saddam Hussein? How many people would be tortured and raped this year if Saddam were not overthrown?

Its obvious that Bush's course action was in the best interest of the Iraqi people, because it got rid of the one thing that has killed over 1 million Iraqi's in the past 24 years. The cost of this war for the Iraqi people pales in comparison to the cost for the Iraqi people of another year under the rule of Saddam.
__________________
STING2 is offline  
Old 04-11-2003, 02:39 PM   #51
ONE
love, blood, life
 
FizzingWhizzbees's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: the choirgirl hotel
Posts: 12,614
Local Time: 11:37 AM
STING,
One could just as easily ask how many Iraqis would be alive today, or healthy today, had they not been attacked by the US and UK...
__________________
FizzingWhizzbees is offline  
Old 04-11-2003, 03:02 PM   #52
Rock n' Roll Doggie
FOB
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 8,876
Local Time: 11:37 AM
Fizzing,

Thats easy, there would be far less Iraqi's alive today do to the constant torture, rape and murder that happens every day across Iraq. Saddam controled everything inside Iraq including who was allowed to recieve humanitarian supplies and food. Towns and cities that had often been denied food and had poor drinking facilities because Saddam would not repair them. Now food is coming to these people because Saddam has been overthrown. Drinking water is being fixed.

The French proposal to continue inspections would have continued the suffering and misery of the Iraqi people. An average of 50,000 people die every year in Iraq from the rule of Saddam. 1,300 Iraqi civilians have died in this war. That is far less than the number of lives that have been saved.

Oh and while I'm on the topic, where are all the refugees?!?! There was supposed to be 2 or 3 million according to the anti-war protesters. Just another point in which the anti-war crowd had it totally wrong.

Another point, the number of civilians that would be killed. They claimed themselves supported by so called accurate UN statistics that over 800,000 civilians would die. Not even close.

Did any of the anti-war protestors ever once think about the number of civilians who would be raped, tortured, and murdered by the continued rule of Saddam? More sanctions you say, 6 months more of more sanctions? How many civilians did you count would die in those 6 months at the hands of Saddam. It seems that many in the anti-war crowd do or did not realize that the course of action they were proposing involved a cost on the Iraqi people that would be far greater than a US military invasion.

The Bush administration has removed one of the greatest mass murders in the history of the world.
__________________
STING2 is offline  
Old 04-11-2003, 03:09 PM   #53
ONE
love, blood, life
 
melon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 11,781
Local Time: 06:37 AM
I think we need to be a bit more practical in the rebuilding of Iraq. France and Russia merely care about their pocketbooks, perhaps in the same vein as the U.S. / U.K. does in the long run. Why should France and Russia be "rewarded" for doing nothing?

Melon
__________________
melon is offline  
Old 04-11-2003, 04:06 PM   #54
Rock n' Roll Doggie
ALL ACCESS
 
hiphop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: in the jungle
Posts: 7,410
Local Time: 01:37 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by melon
I think we need to be a bit more practical in the rebuilding of Iraq.
If you want practicability, why not forget about pocketbooks and stuff and include every country in helping Iraq to rebuild what US and UK have bombed down? I think like that it would work out faster, and the faster Iraq is rebuilt, the more practical it is.
__________________
hiphop is offline  
Old 04-11-2003, 04:10 PM   #55
Rock n' Roll Doggie
ALL ACCESS
 
hiphop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: in the jungle
Posts: 7,410
Local Time: 01:37 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
It seems that many in the anti-war crowd do or did not realize that the course of action they were proposing involved a cost on the Iraqi people that would be far greater than a US military invasion.
Thatīs wrong, I never proposed sanctions. I was for disarmarment, but not for sanctions.
__________________
hiphop is offline  
Old 04-11-2003, 05:47 PM   #56
The Fly
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Russia
Posts: 210
Local Time: 02:37 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by melon
I think we need to be a bit more practical in the rebuilding of Iraq. France and Russia merely care about their pocketbooks, perhaps in the same vein as the U.S. / U.K. does in the long run. Why should France and Russia be "rewarded" for doing nothing?

Melon
Absolutely. We don't even seek participation in rebuilding of Iraq. Why should we? After all, we did not bomb it out. We only want 8bln that Iraq owes us back. That's it.
By the way, Kellogg Brown&Root (Halliburton's subsidiary) already got one oilwell firefighting contract in Iraq (AP, news.com.au., etc) so I hope at least Mr.Cheney is satisfied
__________________
ALEXRUS is offline  
Old 04-11-2003, 07:18 PM   #57
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 4,422
Local Time: 11:37 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by ALEXRUS


Absolutely. We don't even seek participation in rebuilding of Iraq. Why should we? After all, we did not bomb it out. We only want 8bln that Iraq owes us back. That's it.
By the way, Kellogg Brown&Root (Halliburton's subsidiary) already got one oilwell firefighting contract in Iraq (AP, news.com.au., etc) so I hope at least Mr.Cheney is satisfied

yep, and that 8 billion, plus the billions owed to france and germany, are the reason they would not support military action: because there is a chance that the new government of iraq will not honor those debts and they will never see that money repaid.

life's a bitch, ain't it?
__________________
JOFO is offline  
Old 04-11-2003, 07:45 PM   #58
Rock n' Roll Doggie
FOB
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 8,876
Local Time: 11:37 AM
HIPHOP,

"Thatīs wrong, I never proposed sanctions. I was for disarmarment, but not for sanctions"

I'm not talking about sanctions, the death and suffering of the Iraqi people is do to Saddam Hussein and not sanctions. Saddam Hussein murdered over 1 million Iraqi's through his wars, executions, and the denial of humanitarian supplies to various regions of the country when it benefited him. Saddam would buy humanitarian supplies through the oil for food program and instead of giving it to needy people in Iraq, he would resell it illegally to other countries through smuggling.

The Anti-war crowd does not realize that leaving Saddam in power would kill far more Iraqi's than the current war did, with or without sanctions.
__________________
STING2 is offline  
Old 04-11-2003, 10:08 PM   #59
Blue Crack Addict
 
verte76's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: hoping for changes
Posts: 23,331
Local Time: 11:37 AM
I'm aware that Saddam screwed his own people. However he did his damage over the course of 24 years. I'm from the crowd that were upset about the *possible* humanitarian damage, (hell, I work for a humanitarian charity, the African Well Fund group in my sig) and I'm not familiar with any numbers as high as 2 or 3 million. Keep in mind that we had no idea how long the war would last. The only numbers Oxfam (the group I represented as a protester) used were hypothetical, based on the time the war would last. The word was "possible", not "accurate". "Accuracy" is impossible given the time uncertainty. The only certainty was there would be refugees. I got into humanitarian fund-raising by way of a refugee crisis, that of Kosovo. I supported that campaign, incidentally; I am not a complete pacifist. Bosnia had convinced me that Milosevic was a . It was heart-wrenching, and the Milosevic regime was guilty of much of the suffering. I recall one Serbian soldier shooting a mother who was nursing a baby. That was a particularly odious act. Ouch. So I'm familiar with regimes that screw their own people and just how odious they can be. I happen to have really intense, strong feelings about refugees. They're innocent people in a horrible, horrible set of circumstances.
__________________
verte76 is offline  
Old 04-12-2003, 10:58 AM   #60
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
Rono's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: the Netherlands
Posts: 6,163
Local Time: 12:37 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by JOFO



yep, and that 8 billion, plus the billions owed to france and germany, are the reason they would not support military action:

life's a bitch, ain't it?


Are you shure of that ? Or is it the capitalist way of thinking from the Bush goverment ?Because if i read story`s like this ,...


Advisors of Influence: Nine Members of the Defense Policy Board Have Ties to Defense Contractors,..

http://www.publicintegrity.org/dtawe...L3=0&L4=0&L5=0

__________________

__________________
Rono is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:37 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright ÂĐ Interference.com