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Old 04-10-2003, 06:20 PM   #31
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Never mind...LOL They were posted,
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Old 04-10-2003, 06:28 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
You mean that you disagree with my belief that for 12 years France and Russia have been undermining the sanctions is wrong? Are you certain? Who has opposed stregnthening sanctions? Who violated the resolution that banned flights directly into Baghdad?

I am sorry, but I wholeheartedly believe what I posted. These two nations have been much less than cooperative at the UN. 12 years to work it out is long enough.

By the way...Over 260,000 dead from the sanctions that Russia and France have benfitted from so they can get good oil.

I stand by my beliefs.

Peace
Yes ok whatever, but you canīt go around to say it was Frances and Russias fault!

Say, there is a small arms shop down my street. My neighbors are customers of this shop. I feel threatened by the shop, even if I have made good business with it in the past, just like my neighbors. Anyway, the owner of the shop is a weird man.

In a try to pre-emptively defend myself, I take my gun and kill the owner of the shop, who is known for raping his employees. My neighbors didnīt care about that, they just wanted to buy their small arms, but I cared for the employees. Now he is dead, and they cheer. I tell my uncle he can have the shop to continue to sell small arms, nevertheless I am not persecuted by law for murdering the owner of this shop.

Question: is it legally my responsibility that he is dead, or is it the one of my neighbors who didnīt care?
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Old 04-10-2003, 06:38 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
Never mind...LOL They were posted,
LOL

what did you want to say?

LOL
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Old 04-10-2003, 06:39 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars


Yes ok whatever, but you canīt go around to say it was Frances and Russias fault!
When Russia violates UN Resolutions and starts direct flights into bagdhad...how is it that they did not contribute to the situation?

When France, Russia, and Germany, oppose any steps to stregnthen sanctions....How is this not contributing to the place we were?


I have said they bear some responsibility for the place we were in last fall, absolutely. 12 years 260,000 dead, because of the bullshit idea that this peace was better than toppling Saddam. Yes, they bear some responsisbility.

If this war remains conventional, and I pray it does, there will be nowhere near 260,000 day. Which is more horrific, setting up a food for oil program, that allowed Saddam to further suppress his people, killing them SLOWLY or toppling the regime?

See, I find the slow starvation and UN Sanctioned Killing of the Iraqi people through Peace, to be much, more horrific. If that makes me wrong in your eyes, fine. France, Russia, and Germany have benefitted from the PEACE.....and that, is why there never was going to be any help from the UN to reslove this crisis.
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Old 04-10-2003, 06:45 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars


LOL

what did you want to say?

LOL
I will say this. I know the mods have addressed the issue but I need to get this off my chest.

SOme of you may have very good points to make, that I might be inclined to agree with but I find it embarrassing to be on the same side of the issue with you because of the manner you choose to post.

Many people post here with out swearing and making degrading comments. It does more harm to your point then help. It makes most people not read what you are really saying. I wish more people would not post like that, and stick to the debate.

Thanks.....if I overstepped, I apologize to the mods. I needed to say that.
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Old 04-10-2003, 06:47 PM   #36
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I'm confused Dreadsox, was the war 'directly the fault of France and Russia', or did they 'bear some responsibility for the place we were in last fall'?
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Old 04-10-2003, 06:52 PM   #37
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I will ammend my overzealous post up aboce, to say that I believe that the place we were in last fall before President Bush spoke to the UN was directly the fault of France and Russia.

As to the War....I think the UN in General, is a failure, as I have said elsewhere, because of the Veto ect. It seems to be incapable of dealing with this type of crisis..ie Kosovo...Palestine...Iraq....Rwanda.

I did overzealously state the war was their Fault. They do bear some of the responsibility as does the US. Mostly though, I blame Saddam.
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Old 04-10-2003, 07:02 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox


When Russia violates UN Resolutions and starts direct flights into bagdhad...how is it that they did not contribute to the situation?

When France, Russia, and Germany, oppose any steps to stregnthen sanctions....How is this not contributing to the place we were?


I have said they bear some responsibility for the place we were in last fall, absolutely. 12 years 260,000 dead, because of the bullshit idea that this peace was better than toppling Saddam. Yes, they bear some responsisbility.

If this war remains conventional, and I pray it does, there will be nowhere near 260,000 day. Which is more horrific, setting up a food for oil program, that allowed Saddam to further suppress his people, killing them SLOWLY or toppling the regime?

See, I find the slow starvation and UN Sanctioned Killing of the Iraqi people through Peace, to be much, more horrific. If that makes me wrong in your eyes, fine. France, Russia, and Germany have benefitted from the PEACE.....and that, is why there never was going to be any help from the UN to reslove this crisis.
Listen Dread I do understand your argumentation, you donīt have to repeat it. Whatever arguments you make, and some may be valid, you said

"...given the war was directly the fault of France and Russia..."

You didnīt say

"...they bear some responsibility for the place we were in last fall, absolutely..."

Thats a HUGE difference.

edit: ok, your above post says all.
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Old 04-10-2003, 07:05 PM   #39
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I agree...and I again was overzealous in my argument over the racism comments.

Peace
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Old 04-10-2003, 07:18 PM   #40
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Imagine there's no countries,
It isnt hard to do,
Nothing to kill or die for,
No religion too,
Imagine all the people
living life in peace...

I'm a hopeless optimist. Thanks Dreadsox.
Also for the post about "being nasty". My mother would say it only shows your ignorance, though I have a bit of a salty tongue myself.

edited to say:
Sting2, I see you and wish you would join us again.
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Old 04-11-2003, 01:53 AM   #41
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Re: Re: Re: France, Germany react to overthrow of Saddam

Okay, I get it..

Now for damage control of my own

If my choice of words offended, my apologies.

But if the overall statement I was making bothers some, forget it....I stand by my original position... entirely.

As for the racism comment, sorry-- I'm "not against the people of these nations, just their government."


Quote:
Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars


You could attack another country. Thereīs Iran, Syria, North Korea on your list. If Egypt mixes too much into your affairs, go for it. If Lybia has a problem with that, you could ask Berlusconi to help you. His troops are near.
Hiphop: The list that you responded to was with regards to the forthcoming meeting among france germany and russia. They are the ones that need to figure out how they are going to have any kind of positive relationship with the new Iraqi government.
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Old 04-11-2003, 08:47 AM   #42
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Ok, here's the deal. Its not so much that the US is going to benefit from rebuilding Iraq, its that France and Russia, if they do get to join in the rebuilding, are jumping on the bandwagon to take credit for something they didn't do. Look, I was on the fence with many parts of this war. War for oil, Iraqi civilians dying. Or the suffering of these people needs to be stopped, Saddam indirectly supports al Qaeda, etc. etc. One thing I always stood by though was that I support American troops. And I'll be damned if any country that didn't support us is now going to jump on the bandwagon now that American blood has been spilled to topple this tyrant.

As for the term racism being thrown around in this thread, be aware it’s a two-way street and the French said things about us too. Just leave this racism label out of this. We're debating the stance of leaders of different nations, not Freedom Fries and Freedon Toast.
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Old 04-11-2003, 09:22 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
1. You mean that you disagree with my belief that for 12 years France and Russia have been undermining the sanctions is wrong? Are you certain? Who has opposed stregnthening sanctions? Who violated the resolution that banned flights directly into Baghdad?

2. I am sorry, but I wholeheartedly believe what I posted.

3...Over 260,000 dead from the sanctions that Russia and France have benfitted from so they can get good oil.

4. Peace
1. Who has opposed lifting sanctions?
Who established no-fly zones over Iraq in violation of international law?

2. You believe...I know. Feel the difference? Lift up the receiver, I'll make you a believer...

3. ...over 260,000 dead from the sanctions that Russia attempted to lift but US rejected ANY attempt in that direction. By the way, we have enough oil in Russia, u know. We even export it... to the US!

4. I thought real militarists deny any notion of peace
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Old 04-11-2003, 09:29 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
France, Russia, and Germany have benefitted from the PEACE.....and that is why there never was going to be any help from the UN to reslove this crisis.
Still trying to find any coherence between the premise and the conclusion in the above sentence.
Should I?
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Old 04-11-2003, 09:35 AM   #45
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Re: Re: Re: Re: France, Germany react to overthrow of Saddam

Quote:
Originally posted by Clark W. Griswold, Jr

Hiphop: The list that you responded to was with regards to the forthcoming meeting among france germany and russia. They are the ones that need to figure out how they are going to have any kind of positive relationship with the new Iraqi government.
We'll figure it out if it's gonna be IRAQI goverment, believe me. I am true prophet in this kind of stuff. Im not sure though how we'll have positive relationship with a US-led/backed government in Iraq but I don't care... because it'll be illegal anyway...
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