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Old 02-14-2008, 05:05 PM   #31
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I keep hearing how disenfranchised the Floridians are - REALLY? I think martha is right - like they'll vote for McCain out of spite because their state legislature screwed them over? This sounds like mostly punditry to me.
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Old 02-14-2008, 10:25 PM   #32
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Originally posted by anitram
I keep hearing how disenfranchised the Floridians are - REALLY? I think martha is right - like they'll vote for McCain out of spite because their state legislature screwed them over? This sounds like mostly punditry to me.

Nobody, not I anyway have said that they would vote for McCain and this is bigger than just Florida voters. It is about any African American person who may feel disenfranchised by a sudden changing of the rules.

But I do not believe that a majority of the African Americans who may feel disenfranchised - and that has NOTHING to do with FL. alone - it has to do with EVERY SINGLE person of African American heritage who believed they were playing under one set of rules, watches their guy, a guy in their wildest dreams they never thought would appear in their lifetime gets SCREWED by the system - they will not vote.

SO if you missed my point, there it is. Never did I say they would vote for MCCain. The Democratic Party cannot win the white house without the African American vote.
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Old 02-14-2008, 10:32 PM   #33
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Maybe I am an irregular Joe.

I believe that any Obama supporter is paying attention. I believe that if there is a perception he got screwed out of the nomination because of a rules change that helps her win, then the Democratic Party is screwed.

As for Obama and McCain - they are fighting for the same group - independent voters. That was why Obama lost NH. McCain drew more when the press annointed Obama.

If Hillary wins due to the technicality - those independents are not necessarily going to stick with her.

You are right, tried and true Democrats are not going to jump to McCain.

Srewed African Americans will be less likely to vote. Independents will break for McCain over Hillary.

Game set match.

Let's hope she does not get those delegates. I want Obama VS McCain.
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Old 02-14-2008, 10:36 PM   #34
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Originally posted by Dreadsox
SO if you missed my point, there it is. Never did I say they would vote for MCCain. The Democratic Party cannot win the white house without the African American vote.
No, I got your point just fine.

I was commenting on how all the media pundits are going on and on about disenfranchising the states of FL and MI by not including their votes and listening to them you'd think people down there were going to riot if Hillary's votes were not counted.
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Old 02-14-2008, 10:44 PM   #35
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Originally posted by anitram


No, I got your point just fine.

I was commenting on how all the media pundits are going on and on about disenfranchising the states of FL and MI by not including their votes and listening to them you'd think people down there were going to riot if Hillary's votes were not counted.
Then it is I who missed it!
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Old 02-14-2008, 11:01 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
I believe that if there is a perception he got screwed out of the nomination because of a rules change that helps her win, then the Democratic Party is screwed.
....
If Hillary wins due to the technicality - those independents are not necessarily going to stick with her.

......
Srewed African Americans will be less likely to vote. Independents will break for McCain over Hillary.

I think you're jumping to some pretty serious conclusions here. Has anyone else said this? Do you really think that independent black voters are going to stay home or vote for McCain just because they're pissed at Clinton? You don't think that eight years of Republican bullshit will be motivation enough for them to vote for the Democrat now matter what?
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Old 02-14-2008, 11:45 PM   #37
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Ya, The Democratic Party is fractured because about half the Dems are too stupid to figure out that the obvious choice is Barack Obama...you guys cease to amaze me...you are the party that nominated Walter Mondale (boooring), Mike Dukakis (snooze), and John Kerry (Mr. Excitement himself) - thinking from that angle it wouldn't surprise me if you did end up nominating Hillary (Billary) and forever letting the Republicans run the country. I hope you are all smarter than that...if not, you'll get what you deserve.
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Old 02-15-2008, 03:31 PM   #38
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I just am not seeing the evidence at this point that the DNC has any intention of seating MI's and FL's delegates simply because Hillary Clinton wants them to. In the event that she does better than expected in the remaining primaries and the two of them wind up in a dead heat, then I think most likely the DNC will either try to convince MI's and FL's Democratic parties to hold a caucus "redo" (a second primary isn't going to happen)--as the DNC recommended from the beginning--or else perhaps agree to seat their delegates on the condition that they be freed to vote for either candidate. I think the majority of the superdelegates will vote for whomever leads in the popular vote.

I do think it's regrettable that the DNC imposed such a harsh penalty on MI and FL for having bumped their primaries to begin with. I also think it's regrettable that all the Democratic candidates except Gravel signed the 'four-state pledge' not to "campaign or participate" in MI and FL in the first place, and that Obama, Richardson, Biden and Edwards made a last-minute decision a month later to interpret that to mean they should withdraw from the ballot in MI as well (withdrawal from FL was not possible). Most of all, it's regrettable that MI's and FL's voters got screwed over by the Democrats because their state legislatures rebelled against the national parties' calendar (and a caucus "redo" won't fix that, since caucuses mean much lower voter turnout). But those are all facts on the ground at this point, and the most reasonable way forward would seem to be for the DNC to stick to its guns.

While the situation is certainly a source of some strain within the Democratic Party at this point, I still don't see this as being analogous to the "fracturing" within the Republican Party BVS was referring to (although that, too, can and does get blown out of proportion, IMO). In that case it seems pretty clear to me that the intense distaste for McCain from some (Republican) quarters isn't so much about him in particular as it is about underlying tensions over ideology--social values, immigration, GWOT management, taxes etc.--that have been building up for awhile. By contrast, with the dueling supporters of Obama vs. Hillary, it seems to me to have very little to do with broader, underlying ideological ruptures, and everything to do with them in particular...who they're respectively perceived to be both as personalities, and as horses to bet on for a Democratic victory in November.
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Old 02-15-2008, 10:28 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by martha
You don't think that eight years of Republican bullshit will be motivation enough for them to vote for the Democrat now matter what?
That's barely enough motivation for me, a life long DEM to vote for her. That's how poloarizing she is and how much I dislike her.
Especially now when she is down again and using negative tactics because she is in a corner, which I guess you could argue is the nature of politics and that may be, but it just makes my disdain and mistrust of her and her husband even stronger. Plus all the Florida and Michigan flap and her not abiding by her SIGNED pledge to play by the rules.

I know lots of other Dems who feel the same way!
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Old 02-15-2008, 10:38 PM   #40
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That's barely enough motivation for me, a life long DEM to vote for her. That's how poloarizing she is and how much I dislike her.
See, this is why the Democrats always choke. A willingness to even entertain the idea of not voting for the nominee. We truly get the government we deserve.
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Old 02-15-2008, 10:40 PM   #41
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^

Yes, the Republicans are much better at falling in line in the end.
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Old 02-15-2008, 10:55 PM   #42
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And they win the damn elections.
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Old 02-15-2008, 11:52 PM   #43
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See, this is why the Democrats always choke. A willingness to even entertain the idea of not voting for the nominee. We truly get the government we deserve.
That may be. The funny thing is I have always been loyal to the Dems, but if the popular vote goes for Obama and the nominee ends up Hillary based on her protest and appeal for Fl and MI , how can you justify that ?
I don't want to be a part of a party that condones this. It's not right. We the people, ya right.
The system needs to be changed back to popular vote rules! It's only fair.
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Old 02-16-2008, 02:12 AM   #44
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Our system was never "popular vote rules"--not for the general election and certainly not for the primaries, where there was no "popular vote" to speak of at all before the 20th century. In practice the superdelegates (like the Republicans' automatic and unpledged delegates) collectively favor whomever the popular vote favors.

I don't think Hillary's pressing to have MI's and FL's delegates seated violates the four-state pledge they all signed--that was drafted by the Democratic parties of IA, NH, SC and NV, not the DNC, and dealt specifically with not campaigning in FL and MI, whom the former four states wished to give an additional kick in the head to. However the point that anyone wishing to strenuously object to the DNC's having stripped FL and MI of all their delegates should have done so earlier is well taken.
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Old 02-16-2008, 05:44 AM   #45
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I suspect that if the situation was reversed, many Obama supporters might very well want those delegations seated and would be fighting for the voices of those poor, disenfranchised voters. I'm not advocating that the delegates be seated because in all honesty I know I would not be advocating equally if Obama had won those states and I would be being disingenuous. If my motivations aren't pure, I'll tell you that.

This situation bears some similarity to Mr. Obama apparently pulling back on a pledge to use only public financing in the general election if the Republican nominee pledged the same, which McCain did. (in an article posted in the other thread). At the time he called for the pledge, the public financing route was advantageous to him. Now that he has taken in huge sums of money, it is not.

And bears similarity to many things the Clintons have done.

In politics and life, it is easy to have principles when you benefit from them. Let's see who has principles when it hurts or inconveniences them. You can make an argument perhaps on who is more pure or less pure but you can't present any of the candidates as a benchmark of pure.
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