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Old 12-06-2007, 04:51 PM   #76
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: FOX News Refuses To Run "Rescue The Constitution" Ad

Quote:
Originally posted by AchtungBono


The only thing I understand is that the U.S. was brutally attacked on 9/11 and 3,000 people were murdered.......and their murderers must be dealt with viciously.

How can the U.S. ever hope to fight the war on terror with one arm tied behind its back??

If you or your family were threatened, you'd make damm sure they were safe and sound using any means necessary to provide for their safety - and so would I.

I've said on more than one occasion that the constitution was drafted in the 18th century and must be updated and revised to meet 21st century conditions and threats.

While we're on the subject......tell the victims of the Nebraska mall shooter how wonderful the constitution is.....it's a great thing the right to bear arms.....where anyone can buy a gun and go on a rampage whenever they want - hallelujah and god bless America.......

With all due respect to the constitution, we aren't living in the same world as the founding fathers were. We face new challenges and greater dangers and I'm sure Al Quaida would have made mincemeat out of George Washington and Thomas Jefferson had they been around at that time.

BVS - as always, this post is NOT intended to insult or offend you (or anyone else) - just to get my point across.
After reading this and your other posts on similar subjects, I can only come to the conclusion that you are completely ignorant of the principles the United States was founded on. There is room for improvement in the Constitution, but allowing torture, rendition, indefinite imprisonment without charges and other tactics of questionable legality that you've been praising here completely goes against many of the core principles my country was built on.

And I hate to be so blunt about it, but if you disagree with that, you are wrong.
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Old 12-06-2007, 07:04 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally posted by phillyfan26


Let me revise your wording again:

Killing or torturing criminal suspects - No

Woman's right to choose - Yes
Here's my point. I don't think either of these issues are addressed in the constitution.

Roe v Wade withdrew from the States the power to legislate with respect to abortion. There is no language in the Fourteenth Amendment of the constitution that indicates this is what it's drafters intended.

Similarly, you can argue that the U.S. is bound in it's treatment of captured enemy combatants and foreign terror - sorry - criminal suspects, because of it's stated support of the U.N. Declaration of Human Rights or the Geneva Conventions, but not the U.S. Constitution. Neither the Bill of Rights nor habeas corpus rights extend beyond our borders or to foreign prisoners of war.

But, in both cases, I realize there are some that read more into the Constitution than I do.
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Old 12-06-2007, 07:08 PM   #78
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The key being suspects, Indy. Criminal or terror is irrelevant. Suspects is the key word.
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Old 12-06-2007, 07:23 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally posted by INDY500


I realize there are some that read more into the Constitution than I do.
I can say the same thing.
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Old 12-06-2007, 07:37 PM   #80
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Originally posted by INDY500
But, in both cases, I realize there are some that read more into the Constitution than I do.
Thnak God.
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Old 12-06-2007, 09:52 PM   #81
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Re: Re: Re: Re: FOX News Refuses To Run "Rescue The Constitution" Ad

Quote:
Originally posted by AchtungBono
Since when is saving lives against the constitution?
It's not. Who ever said it was?

No, what we're criticizing are the METHODS that we use to save lives.

Quote:
Originally posted by AchtungBono
Bottom line - You fight fire with fire and terrorism with terrorism because that's the only language the terrorists understand.
You don't fight terrorism by gentle persuasion.....only by brute force.
All I have to do is look in a history book to see that that line of thinking is wrong. War is nothing more than a vicious cycle. All it does is lead people to hold grudges, the side that loses has to pick up the pieces for god knows how long, and innocent people are punished because of the actions of a few people. Wars may give people short-term resolutions, but the long-term effects are never good. If war solved things, we wouldn't be fighting each other anymore, we'd have gotten everything hammered out eons ago.

You cannot fight terrorism with more terrorism. They attack us, we attack them, they get angrier and attack us back, we get even angrier than that and attack them back...do you see where I'm going here?

In order to fight the fire you use water. And no, we don't need to be "gentle" in dealing with them. I don't know when people got this idea that diplomacy meant gentleness and hugs and flowers. We can still be just as tough with diplomatic methods.

As for this:

Quote:
If you or your family were threatened, you'd make damm sure they were safe and sound using any means necessary to provide for their safety - and so would I.
You're absolutely right. I would fight back. But here's the difference: I'm going after the person(s) DIRECTLY responsible for threatening my family. War doesn't allow for that. If we could find a way to go after the actual people who attacked us on 9/11, that's one thing-I'd be fine with that, as they deserve to be punished. But we don't. Instead, we start a war, and that drags innocent people who had nothing whatsoever to do with the attack into it, and they get hurt/killed as a result. Meanwhile, the people who actually were involved with the crime don't get caught (so, uh, how much longer 'till we find Osama again?).

Not to mention, if I used illegal means to deal with someone who threatened my family or myself, I would expect to be punished for my crimes. And this administration needs to be held accountable for its crimes.

Angela
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Old 12-06-2007, 10:24 PM   #82
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: FOX News Refuses To Run "Rescue The Constitution" Ad

Quote:
Originally posted by Moonlit_Angel


if I used illegal means to deal with someone who threatened my family or myself, I would expect to be punished for my crimes. And this administration needs to be held accountable for its crimes.

Angela
Or...given credit that no addition attacks have occurred within our borders.
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Old 12-06-2007, 10:29 PM   #83
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: FOX News Refuses To Run "Rescue The Constitution" Ad

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Originally posted by INDY500

Or...given credit that no addition attacks have occurred within our borders.
Who's to say we would have been attacked in the past few years?

If anything, Bush's actions have created more enemies.

You're saying the ends justify the means ... and that's wrong. There are plenty of means to getting everything resolved, and war shouldn't be. It can't be.

We fought a war with a nation, when we were attacked by groups of people, not nations. It doesn't add up.
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Old 12-06-2007, 10:30 PM   #84
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None occured in the 9 years between the two Trade Centre attacks either.
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Old 12-06-2007, 10:31 PM   #85
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: FOX News Refuses To Run "Rescue The Constitution" Ad

Quote:
Originally posted by INDY500

Or...given credit that no addition attacks have occurred within our borders.
Oh yes I love this argument. I ate a magic jelly bean when I was a kid and haven't got cancer yet, it's probably the jelly bean.
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Old 12-06-2007, 11:24 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally posted by Earnie Shavers
None occured in the 9 years between the two Trade Centre attacks either.
Or before.
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Old 12-06-2007, 11:35 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally posted by INDY500
Neither the Bill of Rights nor habeas corpus rights extend beyond our borders or to foreign prisoners of war.
So that makes it okay to anything we want to them?

I'm sure if you were arrested in some foreign country without charges you wouldn't say "well, habeas corpus doesn't apply...oh well".

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Old 12-06-2007, 11:38 PM   #88
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Dave, they are all terrorists, we don't have to prove it.
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Old 12-06-2007, 11:47 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
Dave, they are all terrorists, we don't have to prove it.
That's right, "The Decider" said so.
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Old 12-07-2007, 12:04 AM   #90
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Actually, this discussion is getting interesting and Mrs. S. provided a good catalyst with the Fox decision for a discussion on what we really think (or feel) about the Constitution. Is it a document that we pull out only to parade in front of the world when we need some good PR? Is it outdated? Do we send parts of it to the recycle bin and if so, what parts? Do we bear responsibility for it by living up to it? It's not a perfect document. But it's a strong one, and one we have invited the world to judge us by. Without it, without protecting it, without practicing it, we become something other. Maybe the discussion is are we better or worse as that something other.
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