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Old 05-30-2003, 09:56 AM   #61
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Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars

You can change the world.
Hey, I agree with that too!
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Old 05-30-2003, 12:15 PM   #62
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whenhiphopdrovethebigcars,

I am perplexed.

I think maybe something was lost in the translation of my post. I was being sarcastic in that directly under your name and above your avatar it says "New Yorker." It is pretty much common knowledge here in New York that the term African-American is used and not Afro-American. That is why I was being sarcastic.

That's all.

As far as your $300.00 donation is concerned, you have lost me. I have no idea what you are talking about, why I should donate anything, or how any of the philanthropic things I do in my life are any of your business.

This thread is not about insulting people, and should not be - it is about the appropriateness of an institution forcing someone's ideas down other's throats, and how they react.
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Old 05-30-2003, 04:09 PM   #63
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As far as your $300.00 donation is concerned, you have lost me. I have no idea what you are talking about, why I should donate anything, or how any of the philanthropic things I do in my life are any of your business.
I agree thatīs none of my business.

But thereīs is a good reason: it would be the right thing to do. It is a good thing to help people who are starving or children who got AIDS. It is a concrete thing to do. A change you make. So, why shouldnīt you donate?

Give it a thought
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Old 05-30-2003, 04:15 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars

I agree thatīs none of my business.
But thereīs is a good reason: it would be the right thing to do. It is a good thing to help people who are starving or children who got AIDS. It is a concrete thing to do. A change you make. So, why shouldnīt you donate?
Give it a thought
I don't get it - where did this come from?

And how do you know whether ouizy donates or not?
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Old 05-30-2003, 04:39 PM   #65
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Fizzing,

No one is comparing the KKK to any other group or organization. But it is a fact that their political beliefs, and I underline beliefs, are protected to the same degree any belief or opinion is. Because of that, you cannot have a different standard for what is appropriate between a KKK speaker or pro or anti war speaker. When it comes to beliefs, opinions and the right to speak ones mind, the KKK speaker, Pro War Speaker and anti-war speaker are equal. So either students should have to remain silent through all three or they have the right to get up and shout at all three. No matter how extreme the KKK leader is, their right to their political belief and their freedom of speech is equal to that of the Pro or Anti War speaker. Certainly, any member of the KKK that has been involved in criminal action should be locked up as should any in the pro or anti war crowd should be if they engaged in criminal action. But it is not a crime to simply have an opinion and talk about it.
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Old 05-30-2003, 05:27 PM   #66
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Originally posted by STING2
Fizzing,

No one is comparing the KKK to any other group or organization. But it is a fact that their political beliefs, and I underline beliefs, are protected to the same degree any belief or opinion is. Because of that, you cannot have a different standard for what is appropriate between a KKK speaker or pro or anti war speaker. When it comes to beliefs, opinions and the right to speak ones mind, the KKK speaker, Pro War Speaker and anti-war speaker are equal. So either students should have to remain silent through all three or they have the right to get up and shout at all three. No matter how extreme the KKK leader is, their right to their political belief and their freedom of speech is equal to that of the Pro or Anti War speaker. Certainly, any member of the KKK that has been involved in criminal action should be locked up as should any in the pro or anti war crowd should be if they engaged in criminal action. But it is not a crime to simply have an opinion and talk about it.
I have to agree with this.

As far as the donation thing, I will drop that here. I donate my thoughts to Interference, anything else is my own business.
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Old 05-30-2003, 05:35 PM   #67
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I'm not saying the KKK have less of a right to hold their opinions than a person with a less extreme political opinion. I am saying that while I disagree with a pro or anti war speaker being invited to address a graduation, I would disagree even more vehemently if a member of the KKK were to speak. I personally would not boo or heckle a person giving a speech about the war, regardless of whether I agreed or disagreed with them because I do not believe those opinions are offensive or dangerous. I do, however, believe that the opinions of the KKK or any other white superemacist are extremely offensive to all decent people, and can lead to a dangerous rise in racism and racist violence. Therefore I would be entirely comfortable with walking out of a speech given by a member of the KKK - I wouldn't want to sit and listen to their disgusting lies.
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Old 05-30-2003, 05:59 PM   #68
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Fizzing,

I understand that is what you would do and I would actually probably do the same. But if it is ok for others to boo or heckle a KKK member in this setting, then you would have to admit its ok to do the same to a pro war or anti war speaker. Or of course if its never ok to boo or heckle an anti war speaker or pro war speaker in this setting, then the same holds true for the KKK speaker.
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Old 05-30-2003, 06:14 PM   #69
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Originally posted by ouizy

As far as the donation thing, I will drop that here. I donate my thoughts to Interference, anything else is my own business.
Fine.

It would have been a good idea to donate.

I am really sorry that you donīt.
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Old 05-31-2003, 06:01 AM   #70
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I understand that is what you would do and I would actually probably do the same. But if it is ok for others to boo or heckle a KKK member in this setting, then you would have to admit its ok to do the same to a pro war or anti war speaker. Or of course if its never ok to boo or heckle an anti war speaker or pro war speaker in this setting, then the same holds true for the KKK speaker.
No, I don't agree with that. I would walk out of a speech given by the KKK because I think their views are so extreme and so offensive that no decent person should be made to listen to them, much less agree with them. I think the views of white supremacist organisations and race-hate groups are a danger to everyone in society. I think their opinions go beyond expressing a simple political opinion and into the realm of causing racist violence. I wouldn't sit and listen to a KKK speaker.

On the other hand, I would listen to a person speaking about the war, even if I disagreed with them for the simple reason that while I personally might find their views wrong, I don't think those views are extremely offensive in the way the views of the KKK are extremely offensive.
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Old 05-31-2003, 08:20 AM   #71
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Hiphop, Ouizy chooses to not discuss waht he does with his money or anything in his personal life. He never said he doesn't donate and whether he does or not is not our concern. Yes they are good causes, and thankyou for posting info about them - I'm sure others appreciate the information too. They are however, like many other things in this thread, not relevant to the topic.
Like for the African American error, hopefully that has been cleared up to everyone's satisfaction now?
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Old 05-31-2003, 08:47 AM   #72
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Originally posted by Angela Harlem
Hiphop, Ouizy chooses to not discuss waht he does with his money or anything in his personal life. He never said he doesn't donate and whether he does or not is not our concern. Yes they are good causes, and thankyou for posting info about them - I'm sure others appreciate the information too. They are however, like many other things in this thread, not relevant to the topic.
Like for the African American error, hopefully that has been cleared up to everyone's satisfaction now?
Angela, I understand what you are saying. I never said ouizy doesnīt donate at all. For that cause, apparently he chose not to.

You may be right to say that this is none of my business, but anyway, it is my concern - fine maybe not yours, but mine - because I am concerned; not about ouizy in particular, but about the issue.

I donīt care a bit if those issues are relevant to this thread or not. In my opinion, issues like donating are too important to make a decision based on relevancy for a forum thread. Indeed, generally they are so relevant that they are relevant everywhere.

They would also be relevant at a graduation ceremony, for example. I think instead of speaking of war and presenting a personal opinion about it, this above mentioned Chris should maybe - apart from telling the students about the graduation and education and congratulating them - have focused on other things, like the upper class tradition of caring and helping and funding.

I also do care about the differences between Afro American or African American. Anyhow, I think the so called American political correctness often misses out that there are more important things to focus upon. If every American citizen who can afford to would donate 300 $, guess what changes could be made, instead of focusing on things like "its correct to express sth like that or in those words". So what I am talking about, is practical, everyday-life correctness instead of correctness of expressions. Real, practical political correctness means to lower the unjust and cynical discrepancy between rich and poor on our planet.

As to the KKK thing, to any intelligent person it should be totally logical that there are differences when you take history of organizations into account. What is allowed to be expressed by American laws or not, does not play a role from an ethical standpoint, which also must include historical facts. If an ethical standpoint ignores history, it is not worth a lot.
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Old 05-31-2003, 09:40 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars


Angela, I understand what you are saying. I never said ouizy doesnīt donate at all. For that cause, apparently he chose not to. You may be right to say that this is none of my business, but anyway, it is my concern - fine maybe not yours, but mine - because I am concerned; not about ouizy in particular, but about the issue.

I donīt care a bit if those issues are relevant to this thread or not. In my opinion, issues like donating are too important to make a decision based on relevancy for a forum thread. Indeed, generally they are so relevant that they are relevant everywhere.
hiphop, you did say ouizy doesn't donate. you said:

"It would have been a good idea to donate. I am really sorry that you donīt."

I hope you understand why it made a few of us upset that you were jumping on ouizy's back about this. You are in no position to know whether or not ouizy donates, and even if you somehow knew he doesn't, you are still in no position to judge him for not donating. One thing some liberals often say about conservatives is that they are "shoving their own morality down other people's throats". Well, that is exactly what you're doing here. The morality issue here just happens to be donations.
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Old 05-31-2003, 10:06 AM   #74
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I suspect Hiphop's sentance was misstyped. Mistyped? Whatever the word is or isn't lol.
As for what you guys both said, there is a difference between the issues and someone's personal position and actions on those issues. The issues themselves are very important and should be if not already, a concern of everyone. As for this only being an internet forum, yes it is ONLY a forum, and for that reason, we like to keep things on track as much as possible, which you know and understand. I only really said what I did as this thread had veered off. What information you posted though like you said is terribly important. Important enough for its own thread. It may be seen as nitpicking, trying to get content in threads neat and tidy, but in this case the stuff you are talking about deserves more attention than what it may get in here, this thread. I'd be interested for one, if you started a thread about all the things you've brought up.
Anyways, I'm not trying to get your back up or anything Hiphop, there is a bigger picture and its not for our personal lives to be questioned on here. But that said, you've clarified what you meant and we can hopefully leave this alone now and start again if anyone wants to dedicate a thread to the issues alone.
Thanks guys.
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Old 05-31-2003, 02:52 PM   #75
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Fizzing,

"No, I don't agree with that. I would walk out of a speech given by the KKK because I think their views are so extreme and so offensive that no decent person should be made to listen to them, much less agree with them. I think the views of white supremacist organisations and race-hate groups are a danger to everyone in society. I think their opinions go beyond expressing a simple political opinion and into the realm of causing racist violence. I wouldn't sit and listen to a KKK speaker."

"On the other hand, I would listen to a person speaking about the war, even if I disagreed with them for the simple reason that while I personally might find their views wrong, I don't think those views are extremely offensive in the way the views of the KKK are extremely offensive."

Based on what you have said here, I would have to conclude that you believe that having a certain opinion or belief could be a danger to society. I'm not talking about actions here except for perhaps expressing that opinion in a peaceful way.

I believe that simply having an opinion or belief is not in of itself, a danger to society. Acting on those opinions or beliefs could be a danger to society depending on what they are. Since I believe that an opinion or belief is not in of itself a danger to society, I believe that those expressing those beliefs deserve the same rights as anyone else expressing their belief and should be treated in the same way. When your talking only about belief and opinion, how can you have two different standards?

This is why I feel that with a political speach at a graduation ceremony, the treatment of the speaker, whether its a KKK speaker, Pro War Speaker, or Anti War Speaker, should be the same. Interrupting or interfering with the KKK speaker is just as bad or good as doing the same to the Anti War or Pro War Speaker. If the Pro or Anti War speaker has the right to speak without being disrupted in any way, then the KKK Speaker has that right as well.

If it was inappropriate for the students to yell and heckle Chris Hedges, then it would also be inappropriate for them to yell and heckle the KKK speaker. Otherwise, you are going down the road of restricting free speach, freedom of thought and opinion. If one group can recieve unequal treatment because of their beliefs and opinions, anyone potentially at some point could suffer the same discrimination and restriction for simply having an opinion or belief.
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