Former Lt. Gov. of Texas helped Bush avoid Vietnam combat (aka Leave Kerry Alone) - Page 3 - U2 Feedback

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Old 09-05-2004, 03:29 AM   #31
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The only difference is the positive slant on the reply, actually. No one is trying to infer the US military involved in the Vietnam war are all criminals or genocidal murderers. We're talking about war here, remember. It isn't time for anyone to sit down and make daisy chains. It is every day men and women killing other every day men and women. Anyone involved in any type of combat or war scenario has to step outside their every day mindset and think about things just a little bloody differently. It is necessary when it is asked that men and women like all of us here are expected to pick up a weapon and kill another human being. Yes lets not get too carried away with the negatives, but same for the postives. Keep in mind that it is this very thought which makes many so adamantly against all war.

And your claim that no other military is as respect for civilian life as the US is a gross generalisation, and frankly offensive.
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Old 09-05-2004, 04:05 AM   #32
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War is bad, but it is a tool to stop greater evil - the greatest mistake of the latter 20th Century was tricking ourselves into thinking that there is nothing worth fighting for.
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Old 09-05-2004, 06:54 AM   #33
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To put this back OT (somehow the only reply Bush supporters have is to attack Kerry not answer the charges, very similar to how every topic prior to the election turned to what Clinton did).

Bush = Fortunate Son

The Texan will be on CBS Wednesday.
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Old 09-05-2004, 07:42 AM   #34
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You're right, Angela, war is hell, no matter who's fighting it. I think any and all fighting forces try to minimize bloodshed, but there's really no way around this, and there's never been a war fought without some really ugly stuff. I'm very weak in military history, but I do know it was a different story in the Middle Ages, when the best fighters in Europe were, believe it or not, Swiss mercenaries. Switzerland didn't adopt its neutrality stance until the nineteenth century. In the Middle Ages the Swiss mercenaries had a very offensive, as opposed to defensive, fighting method. It was very successful, they went for 200 years without losing a battle, but they had really high casualties. I sure would have hated being on the wrong side of one of those Swiss pikes. Those are very sharp, metallic objects that are still on exhibit in a museum in Switzerland.
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Old 09-05-2004, 11:42 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by Angela Harlem
The only difference is the positive slant on the reply, actually. No one is trying to infer the US military involved in the Vietnam war are all criminals or genocidal murderers. We're talking about war here, remember. It isn't time for anyone to sit down and make daisy chains. It is every day men and women killing other every day men and women. Anyone involved in any type of combat or war scenario has to step outside their every day mindset and think about things just a little bloody differently. It is necessary when it is asked that men and women like all of us here are expected to pick up a weapon and kill another human being. Yes lets not get too carried away with the negatives, but same for the postives. Keep in mind that it is this very thought which makes many so adamantly against all war.

And your claim that no other military is as respect for civilian life as the US is a gross generalisation, and frankly offensive.
No, that is not a gross generalization, but a fact arrived at from studying the situation. There is no other country in the world that invest more money in high tech weapons, which by virtue of their accuracy save civilian lives. No other country in the world invest more money into research for non-lethal weapon systems. No other country in the world invest more money in the training of its military force which obviously reduces losses on all sides in any conflict. By having the strongest military force possible, one is best able to reduce and keep to minimum the level of loss to civilians.

The United States will spend 420 Billion on the military this year alone.


John Kerry indeed refered to the military as war criminals. He was apart of the VVAW which said some of the most inaccurate, disgusting and offensive things about US veterans.

In war, you do your job as you have been trained to do. You execute the operation to the very best of your ability. There is no time for stepping outside yourself or anything. No time for philosophical pondering. There is only time to execute the operation and save as many lives as one can in the process by doing so. The quicker and more decisive the military conflict is, the easier it will be for the victor to save lives on all sides of the conflict, if they choose too.
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Old 09-05-2004, 11:55 AM   #36
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Originally posted by verte76
You're right, Angela, war is hell, no matter who's fighting it. I think any and all fighting forces try to minimize bloodshed, but there's really no way around this, and there's never been a war fought without some really ugly stuff. I'm very weak in military history, but I do know it was a different story in the Middle Ages, when the best fighters in Europe were, believe it or not, Swiss mercenaries. Switzerland didn't adopt its neutrality stance until the nineteenth century. In the Middle Ages the Swiss mercenaries had a very offensive, as opposed to defensive, fighting method. It was very successful, they went for 200 years without losing a battle, but they had really high casualties. I sure would have hated being on the wrong side of one of those Swiss pikes. Those are very sharp, metallic objects that are still on exhibit in a museum in Switzerland.
Few military's try to minimize bloodshed, especially in the third world. Often, lack of modern technology, lack of training, will result in very large numbers of civilian causulties. Also, it is often the objective of certain countries to inflict as much loss of life as possible, like Nazi Germany etc, in many situations.

In order to minimize the loss of civilian life, one has to invest large somes of money in the military to have an advanced force that is well trained and equipped with the latest technology. Many countries simply do not have that much money and it is also not really an important goal for them. Others do have the money but refuse to invest sufficiently in the military.

But the fact remains that the country that invest the most money in its military and either has or is able to get the best technology available will have the means to keep civilian loss of life in any conflict, down to the lowest minimum possible.

No one here is saying that there can now be wars without civilian loss of life. But there is a way to keep the level of loss down significantly, and countries that have invested sufficiently in their military's will have the capability to do this.

For example, in order to have destroyed all the military targets in Baghdad, during the war to remove Saddam from power, with World War II technology, it would have required essentially destroying the entire city. Instead, over 99% of Baghdad was untouched by any of the damage of the precision bombing from the air.
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Old 09-05-2004, 12:16 PM   #37
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You are talking about today's reality not the Vietnam era.
Then Napalm and Agent Orange were constant. Also what about the thousands of bomblets left in Cambodia (of course we were never there).

IMO the use of cluster bombs or the new type of napalm that burnt any vestige of Sadaams troups away is a matter of genocide as those used previouly, for example the carpet bombing of Germany if you want to go back farther.

War is never pretty especially when it can be avoided.
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Old 09-05-2004, 02:31 PM   #38
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If you want proof that these atrocities were taking place in Vietnam, you need look no further than the Pulitzer Award winning coverage from the Toledo Blade. http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?Category=SRTIGERFORCE Kerry wasn't attacking vets, he was stating stories he had heard directly from these Vets about what they did in Vietnam.

As for this Lt. Gov., he specifically says he is ashamed walking around the Vietnam Vets Memorial, seeing all the names knowing those men died while he was giving free rides to big wigs and bigger campaign contributors. He has been quiet for a long time due to black mail from Bush campaigns over the years that they would destroy his political career if he came forward. He's ashamed, he's retired and he has nothing to lose. He's admitting his mistake, which is more than Bush has done when it comes to all the things he's messed up during his presidency.
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Old 09-05-2004, 03:15 PM   #39
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Originally posted by sharky
If you want proof that these atrocities were taking place in Vietnam, you need look no further than the Pulitzer Award winning coverage from the Toledo Blade. http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?Category=SRTIGERFORCE Kerry wasn't attacking vets, he was stating stories he had heard directly from these Vets about what they did in Vietnam.

As for this Lt. Gov., he specifically says he is ashamed walking around the Vietnam Vets Memorial, seeing all the names knowing those men died while he was giving free rides to big wigs and bigger campaign contributors. He has been quiet for a long time due to black mail from Bush campaigns over the years that they would destroy his political career if he came forward. He's ashamed, he's retired and he has nothing to lose. He's admitting his mistake, which is more than Bush has done when it comes to all the things he's messed up during his presidency.
Unfortunately the link you posted does not work, but I doubt it will be able to refute what has been said by millions of veterans of the war. I've seen so called evidence of Israely military atrocities only to find that the "evidence" did not prove anything.

Kerry stated in his testimony that the criminal acts were not isolated occurances but very common and ordered or approved by ALL officers at every level of command. This is gross distortion of an incredible magnitude.

No one has said that No atrocities ever occured. Abuse has occured in all wars, as well as in every police department at one time or another through out the world. But John Kerry's testimony before congress was inaccurate, offensive, and disgusting.
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Old 09-05-2004, 03:28 PM   #40
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Originally posted by Scarletwine
You are talking about today's reality not the Vietnam era.
Then Napalm and Agent Orange were constant. Also what about the thousands of bomblets left in Cambodia (of course we were never there).

IMO the use of cluster bombs or the new type of napalm that burnt any vestige of Sadaams troups away is a matter of genocide as those used previouly, for example the carpet bombing of Germany if you want to go back farther.

War is never pretty especially when it can be avoided.
Napalm was a good weapon at destroying large concentrations of enemy infantry. It saved thousands of soldiers lives and helped to defeat the enemy in many instances. The effectiveness of Agent Orange is questionable. As far as Cambodia goes, the United States or South Vietnames forces should be deployed large number of troops there to deny the North Vietnames those bases they used to attack South Vietnam with. Simply bombing the trails was not enough, although it was indeed necessary if one did not send in ground troops.

No, the use of cluster bombs or napalm is not genocide. These weapons are used against enemy forces in the field of battle. The targeting of enemy troops in battle is never genocide. The carpet bombing of Germany was necessary to achieve the destruction of German industry and as well as military units. Precision bombing technology did not exist back then, and carpet bombing was often the only way to insure the destruction of these key targets. Such bombing helped bring World War II to an end more quickly, thus saving potentially millions of lives in the process.
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Old 09-05-2004, 03:54 PM   #41
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stupid computer. don't know why that link didn't work -- just go to toledoblade.com. a link to the story is on the front page as "Winner of Pulitzer: Tiger Foce: Buried Secrets, Brutal Truth" and is told from the soldiers who committed these acts.
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Old 09-05-2004, 04:06 PM   #42
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The targeting of enemy troops in battle is never genocide. The carpet bombing of Germany was necessary to achieve the destruction of German industry and as well as military units.
So tell me which industry and military units had to be destroyed in Darmstadt or Dresden?

afik Darmstadt was just a testing a new way of bombing and because Darmstadt didn't have military units or military industry they didn't even have bomb-shelters.
-> ~1/2 hour where more than 12.000 civilists died

So i also think, sometimes war is just ugly and many things are just no war crimes because the winner writes history.

But still this number of victims is smalled compared to how many Russians died every day in Worldwar II
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Old 09-05-2004, 05:21 PM   #43
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Attacking kerry? hmmmmm! seems to me that the better part of this year kerry has been attacking bush... now bush is giving kerry a taste of his own medicine. ANYWAYS as long as kerry says bush is worse then hitler then i think bush can say whatever the hell he wants and still be in bounds. Come on!!! people hold Bush to a higher and double standard. So what if he wanted to stay out of the dangers of the war.. i dont blame at all! atleast he dint leave his comrads and go off on vacation for christmas during the war.
Jhon Kerry dishonored many of the men in my family who went to this war. Jhon kerry accuses my family name of being CRIMINALS for going to vietnam and saying things like cutting off heads torturing many of innocent lives. during that speach in 1971 he accuses all of the americans for those deeds.
when kerry dies i will go to his grave and urinate on the namestone.
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Old 09-05-2004, 07:50 PM   #44
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Originally posted by sharky
stupid computer. don't know why that link didn't work -- just go to toledoblade.com. a link to the story is on the front page as "Winner of Pulitzer: Tiger Foce: Buried Secrets, Brutal Truth" and is told from the soldiers who committed these acts.
I didn't seen anything on the page I went to. Also, do the soldiers who claim to have committed the brutal acts have any tangible evidence? Once again, were talking about John Kerry's claims that all officers at all levels of command either committed or approved of war crimes.
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Old 09-05-2004, 07:57 PM   #45
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Originally posted by Klaus
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So tell me which industry and military units had to be destroyed in Darmstadt or Dresden?

afik Darmstadt was just a testing a new way of bombing and because Darmstadt didn't have military units or military industry they didn't even have bomb-shelters.
-> ~1/2 hour where more than 12.000 civilists died

So i also think, sometimes war is just ugly and many things are just no war crimes because the winner writes history.

But still this number of victims is smalled compared to how many Russians died every day in Worldwar II
Can you prove to me that there was not a single military unit, soldier, factory, industry, communication or transportation infrustructure, in Darmstadt or Dresden that could be used in some way by the German War machine?
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