Former Gay Christian Educator Fights Homosexuality Issues at Schools

[martha]

Folks, arguing with this guy is pointless. His disingenousness is amazing! He feigns innocence, dodges the questions, claims to have no agenda, and will not acknowledge any source of authority other that his own sources. You'll be here all week, citing facts, offering well thought-out opinions tempered by your own experiences, while he'll focus solely on whatever he's either been told to believe or has decided is true, without any experience to back it up.


Good luck! But the more you argue with him, the more he'll shoot back with his offensive, unsubstantiated, limited crap.

 

[Macfistowannabe]

Okay, getting back on topic. Most of you are centered on the fact that this man classifies himself as ex-gay. Let's look at his actual cause, rather than jump to all these conclusions about ex-gays. Sure, they're a very small percentage of our population, but how often do you hear about one, especially one with a cause of fighting discrimination among gays and ex-gays? Let's allow ourselves to think that maybe sexuality is a mystery. In other words, do I dare say, let's be open-minded about it.

 

[Dreadsox]

His cause does not match what psychologists say is healthy.

I addressed that......and I have been researching him. He clearly does not match what the APA feels. I think approaching from this angle with the idea that you can change from what you are into something else is part of his agenda.

As I said last night, there are plenty of programs that are in schools to help teachers, staff, and the community making the environment safe. That environment is key, because psychologists have found that the evironment is what leads to so much of the self destructive behavior on the part of gay teenagers.

 

[Dreadsox]

As far as people becoming ex-gay, I would be willing to be willing to bet that there is research out there that demonstrates a certain portion of the population as being bi-sexual. I wonder how many of the ex-gay people might fall into that category. I find it interesting that we are pigeon holing people into two categories, when the reality is that there are those in between.

 

[Macfistowannabe]

I have been researching him. He clearly does not match what the APA feels. I think approaching from this angle with the idea that you can change from what you are into something else is part of his agenda.

I'm glad you went out and did some research on him. One of my pastors is an ex-Black Panther, and he's living proof that people can change their lives around. All I got out of your APA post is that homosexuality is not considered a mental disorder. I'm glad you brought that up.

As I said last night, there are plenty of programs that are in schools to help teachers, staff, and the community making the environment safe. That environment is key, because psychologists have found that the evironment is what leads to so much of the self destructive behavior on the part of gay teenagers.

A lot of that is because gays are mistreated and denounced in society. While this guy may not exactly work for the APA, I do think that he's overcome a lot in his life, and that he's trying to make the social environment a better place.

 

[Dreadsox]

I'm glad you went out and did some research on him. One of my pastors is an ex-Black Panther, and he's living proof that people can change their lives around. All I got out of your APA post is that homosexuality is not considered a mental disorder. I'm glad you brought that up.

A lot of that is because gays are mistreated and denounced in society. While this guy may not exactly work for the APA, I do think that he's overcome a lot in his life, and that he's trying to make the social environment a better place.

Do you understand how sad it is that you would equate being a black panther with being a homosexual?

There is a difference between chosing to be a black panther and being gay.

As for your getiing only one thing out of my posts last night, you missed the important fact that if it is not a mental disorder, then there is no reason to treat it as being such. The treatment being advocated by the gentleman in your article is in direct opposition to what the leading experts say is healthy.

 

[coemgen]

This has been a really interesting thread to read. As a Christian, the most important thing to remember is that homosexuals need to be loved just like everybody else. (duh) We're all human. Being loved is necessary to us. I wish the Christian community would reach out to the homosexual community, in a nonpolitical way (in true Christianity, not Right Wing "Christianity,") and love these people for being PEOPLE. Christ was known for hanging out with "sinners" (we all are) and I believe he'd hang out with them as well. However, this is one of those tough subjects to talk about. The Bible is clear about homosexuality being a sin, but it's clear about hatred and judgement being sins too. We all have temptations in our lives or battles we have to fight. (I personally battle lust and judgement like the next person.) The Bible doesn't say homosexual feelings or thoughts are sins, it talks about homosexual activity — the lifestyle, not being right. People often say "Well, why did God create homosexual people?" and that's a good, valid question. (And a difficult one to answer.) My guess, and this is only my guess, is that maybe it is something learned and not genetic. I know the cynics here are reading into that point I just made, claiming it's peppered with a political stance, but seriously — from what I've heard, there is no conclusive evidence that it is genetic. (And yes, I've heard that from secular sources too.) Also, I'm not the greatest at science or any of that crap, but it seems to me that if it were truly genetic, wouldn't that gene "die out" so to speak because theoretically homosexuals aren't in reproductive relationships to where the gene could be passed on. (I know homosexuals who haven't come out of the "closet" who ended up marrying are excluded from this.) Granted, I only know a few homosexuals, but I've never heard one say, "Well, my mom is gay." You know? I'm not trying to be flippant here either. I do know that a lot of homosexuals come from abusive childhoods and maybe that alters which sex they're attracted to. If that IS the case, then the last thing they need is to feel judged even more. They need love, people! Yes, I may disagree with the homosexual lifestyle, but I'm NOT going to let my stance on that issue overshadow my love for them as a human. That's just me though.

 

[Dreadsox]

I wish the Christian community would reach out to the homosexual community, in a nonpolitical way (in true Christianity, not Right Wing "Christianity,") and love these people for being PEOPLE. Christ was known for hanging out with "sinners" (we all are) and I believe he'd hang out with them as well. However, this is one of those tough subjects to talk about.

I strongly believe that this is one of the truest things I have read. It is also the belief of the person the article is writing about. It is one of the central themes of his book, and I think it is a VERY valid point.

My problem is, there is an underlying goal set by him, and that is we love them so we can get closer to them and then convince them they can become un-gay. And that flies in the face of psychology and the damage that is done through this process.

The Bible is clear about homosexuality being a sin, but it's clear about hatred and judgement being sins too. We all have temptations in our lives or battles we have to fight. (I personally battle lust and judgement like the next person.) The Bible doesn't say homosexual feelings or thoughts are sins, it talks about homosexual activity — the lifestyle, not being right.

This is debatable as well. I would argue that the Bible is not clear on homosexuality, but that would be for another thread. What I agree with you on is that there are MANY things listed as sins in the bible. It is EASIER to target a homosexual as a sinner and publically use it to make yourself seem righteous.

I would say that I could quote Jesus' speaking about adultry to say that homosexual thoughts are indeed sin, since looking at a woman in lust is the equivalent of adultery according to Jesus.

Still, we aren't walking around raving about adultery. Talk about a sin that completely affects others in a family.


[Q](I know homosexuals who haven't come out of the "closet" who ended up marrying are excluded from this.) Granted, I only know a few homosexuals, but I've never heard one say, "Well, my mom is gay." You know? I'm not trying to be flippant here either. I do know that a lot of homosexuals come from abusive childhoods and maybe that alters which sex they're attracted to. [/Q]

My Aunt and her wife have been together longer than my parents 8 marriages. I have said in this forum, that having absolutely NO parental role models for how a marriage is supposed to work. I have my Aunt and my Aunt.

Their son, my cousin, was just married three years ago and is expecting his first child with his wife. Amazing that he did not turn out gay isn't it. Amazing that using my aunt as my role model I have now been married longer than 7 of my parents marriages.

If that IS the case, then the last thing they need is to feel judged even more. They need love, people! Yes, I may disagree with the homosexual lifestyle, but I'm NOT going to let my stance on that issue overshadow my love for them as a human. That's just me though. [/B]

And I think this is very wise. Great post.

 

[Dreadsox]

[Q]AMERICAN PSYCHIATRIC ASSOCIATION 1

"There is no published scientific evidence supporting the efficacy of reparative therapy' as a treatment to change one's sexual orientation. It is not described in the scientific literature, nor is it mentioned in the APA's latest comprehensive Task Force Report, Treatments of Psychiatric Disorders (1989).
"There are a few reports in the literature of efforts to use psychotherapeutic and counseling techniques to treat persons troubled by their homosexuality who desire to become heterosexual; however, results have not been conclusive, nor have they been replicated. There is no evidence that any treatment can change a homosexual person's deep-seated sexual feelings for others of the same sex.
"Clinical experience suggests that any person who seeks conversion therapy may be doing so because of social bias that has resulted in internalized homophobia, and that gay men and lesbians who have accepted their sexual orientation positively are better adjusted than those who have not done so."

AMERICAN PSYCHOLOGICAL ASSOCIATION 2

"Even though homosexual orientation is not a mental illness and there is no scientific reason to attempt conversion of lesbians or gays to heterosexual orientation, some individuals may seek to change their sexual orientation or that of another individual (for example, parents seeking therapy for their child). Some therapists who undertake this kind of therapy report that they have changed their clients' sexual orientation (from homosexual to heterosexual) in treatment. Close scrutiny of their reports indicates several factors that cast doubt: Many of the claims come from organizations with an ideological perspective on sexual orientation, rather than from mental health researchers; the treatments and their outcomes are poorly documented; and the length of time that clients are followed up on after treatment is too short.
"In 1990, the American Psychological Association stated that scientific evidence does not show that conversion therapy works and that it can do more harm than good. Changing one's sexual orientation is not simply a matter of changing one's sexual behavior. It would require altering one's emotional, romantic and sexual feelings and restructuring one's self-concept and social identity.
"Although some mental health providers do attempt sexual orientation conversion, others question the ethics of trying to alter through therapy a trait that is not a disorder to an individual's identity.
"Not all gays and lesbians who seek therapy want to change their sexual orientation. Gays and lesbians may seek counseling for any of the same reasons as anyone else. In addition, they may seek psychological help to come out' or to deal with prejudice, discrimination and violence.
"For nearly three decades, it has been known that homosexuality is not a mental illness. Medical and mental health professionals also now know that sexual orientation is not a choice and cannot be altered. Groups who try to change the sexual orientation of people through so-called conversion therapy' are misguided and run the risk of causing a great deal of psychological harm to those they say they are trying to help."

AMERICAN ACADEMY OF PEDIATRICS 3

"Confusion about sexual orientation is not unusual during adolescence. Counseling may be helpful for young people who are uncertain about their sexual orientation or for those who are uncertain about how to express their sexuality and might profit from an attempt at clarification through a counseling or psychotherapeutic initiative. Therapy directed at specifically changing sexual orientation is contraindicated, since it can provoke guilt and anxiety while having little or no potential for achieving changes in orientation."
"Pediatricians should be aware that some of the youths in their care may be homosexual or have concerns about sexual orientation. Caregivers should provide factual, current, nonjudgmental information in a confidential manner."
"The psychosocial problems of gay and lesbian adolescents are primarily the result of societal stigma, hostility, hatred and isolation. The gravity of these stresses is underscored by current data that document that gay youths account for up to 30 percent of all completed adolescent suicides. Approximately 30 percent of a surveyed group of gay and bisexual males have attempted suicide at least once. Adolescents struggling with issues of sexual preference should be reassured that they will gradually form their own identity and that there is no need for premature labeling of one's sexual orientation."

AMERICAN MEDICAL ASSOCIATION 4

"Most of the emotional disturbance experienced by gay men and lesbians around their sexual identity is not based on physiological causes but rather is due more to a sense of alienation in an unaccepting environment. For this reason, aversion therapy (a behavioral or medical intervention which pairs unwanted behavior, in this case, homosexual behavior, with unpleasant sensations or aversive consequences) is no longer recommended for gay men and lesbians. Through psychotherapy, gay men and lesbians can become comfortable with their sexual orientation and understand the societal response to it."[/Q]

1 From an American Psychiatric Association fact sheet, September 1994.

2 The American Psychological Association overwhelmingly passed a resolution on "reparative therapy" at its annual convention, Aug. 14, 1997.

3 From a policy statement entitled "Homosexuality and Adolescence," published in the journal Pediatrics, Oct. 1993.

4 Excerpts following are from "Health Care Needs of Gay Men and Lesbians in the U.S.: A Report Presented by the Council on Scientific Affairs to the AMA House of Delegates Interim Meeting," December 1994.

 

[Macfistowannabe]

Coemgen's post speaks for me as well. I don't like to pass judgement, but rather the Christian community would do more to reach out to the homosexual community. The question is, how do we do it?

 

[pax]

Martha, you of all people ought to know that personal attacks are not okay in FYM.

 

[dandy]

Coemgen's post speaks for me as well. I don't like to pass judgement, but rather the Christian community would do more to reach out to the homosexual community. The question is, how do we do it?

treat them with the same respect, compassion, and love afforded to everyone else, and stop being so hung up on what they do or don't do in the bedroom.

 

[Macfistowannabe]

treat them with the same respect, compassion, and love afforded to everyone else, and stop being so hung up on what they do or don't do in the bedroom.

Interesting, and I don't see how Chad Thompson's message is all that different. I guess the great divider is that he claims to be ex-gay, and wants to work with gays who want to become heterosexual.

 

[Dreadsox]

Interesting, and I don't see how Chad Thompson's message is all that different. I guess the great divider is that he claims to be ex-gay, and wants to work with gays who want to become heterosexual.

It is a great divider with me. Considering the overwealmning amount of research that demostrates a very slim success rate at best, coupled with the fact that it produces more harm to the gay person when it does not work, on top of the fact that the major psychological association in this country, coupled with the pediatrics association, have all come out strongly against such programs.....yeah...its a divider. It certainly does not belong in the hands of teachers like myself, who are not trained to perform such activities as it is. Finally, it divides me further because it is religiously based, something public educators have no business teaching.

 

[Macfistowannabe]

You have every right to feel that way, Dreadsox. It could be a very personal issue with you, having a friend lose his life over it, and I'm very sorry to hear about that.

 

[angel_of_L.A.]

I am just here to hug Dread. I'm so sorry about your friend.



No matter what the issue is, anger leads to self-hate which leads to violence. And in the process, you and your loved ones are hurt.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

What I agree with you on is that there are MANY things listed as sins in the bible. It is EASIER to target a homosexual as a sinner and publically use it to make yourself seem righteous.

Yeah...I freakin' hate it when people do that, 'cause doesn't that same Bible also say something about how he without sin can be the first one to cast stones and whatnot? Nobody's perfect, so it bugs me when I see some people out there who seem to think otherwise.

Angela

 

[joyfulgirl]

I have had deep friendships with many, many gays and lesbians for more years than you, Macfisto, have been alive on this planet. Since you only know one gay person (you said in another thread, if I recall correctly), and you have very little experience with gays, I just don't understand why you seem to be so obsessed with this issue. I don't mean to be rude, and I respect the fact that you're trying to understand something you have limited life experience with, but frankly, you really don't know what you're talking about. Why don't you take up a cause you actually have some experience with.

 

[Dreadsox]

You have every right to feel that way, Dreadsox. It could be a very personal issue with you, having a friend lose his life over it, and I'm very sorry to hear about that.

Thank you....

Yet other than your initial article I have seen nothing to prove the FACTS that I am basing my opinions, not feelings, on.

I have questioned the intelligence of having non-professionals in the psychiatric field, being teachers, use this man's program and made plenty of other points.

My opinions, not feelings, are based on the courses I have taken, my readings on the topic, the research I have read on the topic, and my interactions with students.

Somehow, I am leaning in the direction that this was not an honest attempt at dialogue.

 

[Macfistowannabe]

The reason I discuss this issue often is to get a different perspective. I believe very strongly that you don't know your own views until you hear everyone else's. I'm not trying to shove an agenda down anyone's throat, I'm trying to ask realistic, valid questions.

 

[Dreadsox]

Thanks to any and all who sent well wishes. I really did not bring it up for that purpose. It just started to come out yesterday after thinking about the topic, and realizing it was just before Christmas 1993 that he passed away.

He was one fun kid to watch in religion classes. He was well on his way towards making a difference in the world.

 

[Macfistowannabe]

I only think it's positive that you brought it up, it helps me understand why you might feel very sensative to the issue.

 

[Dreadsox]

See, your word choice somehow is implying that I am overly emotional about it.

If that is not your intent fine....

I have presented plenty of facts and from the position of a professional educator without the emotion to show that I am not basing my position on "Feelings" or "emotions" as you seem to keep pointing too.

Other than the two articles you posted I have not seen much other than you are chalking my postion up to "feelings and emotions."

 

[Macfistowannabe]

See, your word choice somehow is implying that I am overly emotional about it.

If that is not your intent fine....

Not my intention, I don't mean to imply that anyone here is overemotional.

 

[Dreadsox]

Not my intention, I don't mean to imply that anyone here is overemotional.

WE are good.

 

[Macfistowannabe]

Since the Episcopal Church takes a unique stance on the issue, do you think the homosexual community responds well to it?

 

[Dreadsox]

Since the Episcopal Church takes a unique stance on the issue, do you think the homosexual community responds well to it?

I will give you my best attempt at an answer to this because I have only been attending the Episcopal Church since February.

The Episcopal Church is divided on this issue as are many. I find it refreshing to have a woman priest who is not hiding who she is sexually from the congregation. I find it refreshing to hear her preach on Sunday knowing that she is not some perfect human being. She comes forward as she is as imperfect as I am, and when she speaks of a loving God, and of what we should be doing as Chrisitians not just as a Church worshipping together, but as people with a responsibilty to walk out the doors and help the homeless, and feed the poor, and help those with AIDS, my heart sings.

When I hear the bishop say while I was at an AIDS conference a month ago that it is time to stop arguing about the homosexuality and gay and start loving our neighbors and doing something about AIDS and being a friend to those who need friendship my heart sang out with joy.

But, it is still a church divided. Some places in AFRICA are no longer accepting ERF money because of the gay Bishop.

If you are asking me, do I know how the homesexual community has reacted towards my congregation I cannot say. Isn't that the way it should be though? I have no clue who is gay or not, and quite honsetly it has never crossed my mind. I can tell you that the number of families switching into our church is increasing. I find that to be interesting and I only know this because of the sizzes of the Sunday school classes.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

Thanks to any and all who sent well wishes. I really did not bring it up for that purpose. It just started to come out yesterday after thinking about the topic, and realizing it was just before Christmas 1993 that he passed away.

No, hey, that's okay, I totally understand . And you're welcome.

Originally posted by Dreadsox
He was one fun kid to watch in religion classes. He was well on his way towards making a difference in the world.

Aw...

Well, hey, if it helps you feel better, he seems like he was a good person from what you've told us, and he obviously had a positive effect on you, so if that's the legacy he's left behind, I can't think of a better one to have .

Angela

 

[coemgen]

Hey Dredsox, thanks for the response to my post. (And I'm sorry to hear about your freind as well. )
And actually the Bible is clear about homosexuality — 1 Corinthains 6:9,10 says "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prositutes nor homosexual offenders...will inherit the kingdom of God."
To me, and I'm open to others' input and discussion about this verse, homosexual "offenders" are those who actually have homosexual sex or, as you mentioned, lustful thoughts (yes, you're right, Jesus did say to have lust in your heart after a woman is committing adultery). I'm not sure though if a guy simply being attracted to another guy is a sin, and I guess that was what I wanted to say in my last post. I think there's a diffence between me simply admiring God's creation and saying, "Yeah, that woman is cute," verses me thinking about another woman and me in bed. You know? So I don't know if a man being attracted to a man and having thoughts that aren't necessarily out of lust, is a sin. Does that make sense? Or am I just rambling and spliting hairs? Again, this is just my attempt to understand God's word. Obviously, he has the final say on this matter, not me.
Interestingly, after reading that verse again to put it in this post, I read the next one, which reads: "And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."
What would you say that means? (I'm seriously wondering, not trying to piss you off or anything.)
Also, I wasn't saying everyone who grows up with abuse or a broken home or whatever has the potential to be gay. I do know that a good amount of people who are gay have had sexually abusive childhoods though.

 

[Macfistowannabe]

I appreciate your honest response, Dread. I do feel that a lot of Christians need to concentrate on loving their neighbors as themselves, rather than throw stones at them. The priest you have is interesting, I don't really see too many churches that would be quite that open, but really, who are we to judge? I think having a former black panther in my own church, who allowed God to transform him into such a nice guy that he is now demonstrates a lot to me. I'm not really trying to associating that with homosexuality in any way, other than maybe to believe that miracles do happen.