for those who believe in a god (any god)

[indra]

You can't prove there is a god (or gods) any more than I can prove there isn't/aren't. Essentially it comes down to belief.

So my question is:

Do you find the belief in a god or supreme being the creator of the universe more acceptable/comforting than sheer dumb luck (for want of a better way of stating it -- and also 'cause I'm feeling cheeky this evening)? If so, why?


(I can "prove" my belief to me, and you can "prove" your belief to yourself, but we aren't going to change each other's minds, so I'm not looking for essays on why there is or isn't a god/gods. I'm more interested in what belief does for you, if that makes sense.)

 

[cardosino]

You can't prove there is a god (or gods) any more than I can prove there isn't/aren't. Essentially it comes down to belief.

So my question is:

Do you find the belief in a god or supreme being the creator of the universe more acceptable/comforting than sheer dumb luck (for want of a better way of stating it -- and also 'cause I'm feeling cheeky this evening)? If so, why?


(I can "prove" my belief to me, and you can "prove" your belief to yourself, but we aren't going to change each other's minds, so I'm not looking for essays on why there is or isn't a god/gods. I'm more interested in what belief does for you, if that makes sense.)

AS an Engineer by trade, I find it infuriating that I can't just run the experiment to prove it to non-believers, but it's beyond doubt in my mind.

 

[financeguy]

You can't prove there is a god (or gods) any more than I can prove there isn't/aren't. Essentially it comes down to belief.

So my question is:

Do you find the belief in a god or supreme being the creator of the universe more acceptable/comforting than sheer dumb luck (for want of a better way of stating it -- and also 'cause I'm feeling cheeky this evening)? If so, why?

At this point in time, yes, it comes down to belief, but also I genuinely find the (rationally based) arguments for existence of God more convincing than those against. This does not mean that at some future date, the existence (or non-existence) of God will not be proven. I also believe in science and rationality, and science and rationality have brought us to places that a few hundred years ago would have been considered witchcraft or fantasy. So it seems to be distinctly unambitious to say that science won't bring us to a better understanding of God, ultimately.

Personally, I do believe in a creator of some type, if I did not, I would find existence pretty meaningless - like a sick cosmic joke, except that no-one found it funny.

Edited to add: the main problem, at this point in history, is that the theology has not caught up with the science. We are still working up 19th century (at best) theology, and 21st century science. In a nutshell, this is why so many people find it difficult to believe in God right now.

 

[Evalicious]

Well, indra, i dont believe in god, so i guess i just believe
in that "sheer dumb luck"


i could write an essay to explain my feelings, but since you didn´t want one...........


oops, i didn´t read the title of this thread properly.......sorry

 

[financeguy]

At this point in time, yes, it comes down to belief, but also I genuinely find the (rationally based) arguments for existence of God more convincing than those against. This does not mean that at some future date, the existence (or non-existence) of God will not be proven. I also believe in science and rationality, and science and rationality have brought us to places that a few hundred years ago would have been considered witchcraft or fantasy. So it seems to be distinctly unambitious to say that science won't bring us to a better understanding of God, ultimately.

Personally, I do believe in a creator of some type, if I did not, I would find existence pretty meaningless - like a sick cosmic joke, except that no-one found it funny.

Edited to add: the main problem, at this point in history, is that the theology has not caught up with the science. We are still working off 19th century (at best) theology, against 21st century science. In a nutshell, this is why so many people find it difficult to believe in God right now.

 

[indra]

Well, indra, i dont believe in god, so i guess i just believe
in that "sheer dumb luck"


i could write an essay to explain my feelings, but since you didn´t want one...........


oops, i didn´t read the title of this thread properly.......sorry

I was actually going to make a notation that non believers could answer too, but then my attention wandered and I forgot. And essays on feelings are fine, I'm just trying to avoid the headache of wading through arguments trying to prove/disprove the existance of a god or gods. So post away if you want to!

 

[indra]

Re: Re: for those who believe in a god (any god)

AS an Engineer by trade, I find it infuriating that I can't just run the experiment to prove it to non-believers, but it's beyond doubt in my mind.

I don't care about proof in this thread. What I want to know is, what does it do for you?

 

[Nube Gris]

Its not a matter of believing or not believing its more a feeling of how to use Gods power and positive force in your life

Think that way. You cannot waste the rest of your life thinking "There is a God or maybe there is not" Its too bad!
Because if you do, you will end up singing "One step closer" when you are 80 years old and near the end of your Physical life

Your spiritual life and your soul has no age, no shape, no end and no beginning. Its caught in a body that God gave you to do something good and be able to feel the nature here on earth

And when your Body becomes to old and tired, your spirit will continue lo live somewhere else, maybe heaven, maybe in earth again, but WILL LIVE FOREVER

If you believe that for the rest of your life here, and understand that we are spirits first and just a physical body second, that you can control and have everything you want with the power of your mind, you will somehow find a purpose here, you will somehow achieve a magic reality, and you will somehow find what God wants us to give to everyone: Love, only love

All you need is love, GOD is all you need

 

[Kieran McConville]

I think the answer to the original question is, fairly obviously, yes. Infinity is terribly scary and it would be only human to think or hope that there is something beyond this physical life.

I think the best argument for God is the existence of indefinables like spirit. And love. Science cannot prove or disprove the existence of love or the notion of human 'spirit'... we can't touch or taste these things, but it would be a cold person who'd deny they exist. Music is part of it, art is part of it, and of course all religions are an expression of it too.

In a nutshell, I believe in the rational sciences, because they aren't a matter of 'belief', they are mostly a matter of fact (with some exceptions). It's silly to even have to point this out. But, at the same time, it's clear to me that there is more in human existence than can be explained rationally.

That's my perspective.

 

[VertigoGal]

are you looking for a sort of Pascal's wager effect (except in a more general sense, not just Christianity)? ie, even if there isn't a God/Heaven, at least it makes our then insignificant time here a little more enjoyable? It makes sense to me, that's why I've tried so hard to believe in God in the past...oh wait, this thread wasn't directed at me...lol

 

[Macfistowannabe]

I am convinced by every blessing I've been given that God exists, and it's comforting to believe that I have a purpose in life.

 

[Evalicious]

I think the answer to the original question is, fairly obviously, yes. Infinity is terribly scary and it would be only human to think or hope that there is something beyond this physical life.

I think the best argument for God is the existence of indefinables like spirit. And love. Science cannot prove or disprove the existence of love or the notion of human 'spirit'... we can't touch or taste these things, but it would be a cold person who'd deny they exist. Music is part of it, art is part of it, and of course all religions are an expression of it too.

In a nutshell, I believe in the rational sciences, because they aren't a matter of 'belief', they are mostly a matter of fact (with some exceptions). It's silly to even have to point this out. But, at the same time, it's clear to me that there is more in human existence than can be explained rationally.

That's my perspective.

I like what you´re saying, i may not agree with it all, but i still like
your perspective

 

[annj]

well I have to state I was an aethist, then became a believer

what makes me believe is not only the physical aspects of the things around me,

But the actual evidence that I have seen Gods power at work in peoples lives, people from different ethnic and racial who at one time hated backgrounds and nationalities who hated each other put their differences behind them, and show love towards one another.. we have seen around the world goverments trying to bring peace between these people EG where I live in Northern Ireland Isreal and Palestine ect.. the attempts have seemed almost impossible at times,

I am sure you will agree with me in General mankind does want to live in peace with each other without the suffering of people dying in wars, So the power of God that I believe when he tells us to Love him and our fellow man and we follow through on this basic command it transends beyond our own selfish desires

if we love God more than we love our country our or nationality, suddenly borderlines ect don't matter to us anymore, Because we have this burning desire to please him and not ourselves and follow his laws and we see ourselves as all Gods children as he does, not colour creed or race, and I have seen evidence of this over and over again personally what the power of Gods word can change minds and hearts.

I was quite happy without God in my life I wsn't even searching for him.. it was the last thing on my mind.. I wasn't looking for some comfort to keep me going to believe in some afterlife when I died, I ws quite happy to accept that death was the end.. The truth was he found me, which sort of turns that argument on its head that we only believe in God because we can't accept death

To me there are two basic scriptures in the bible I needed proved of before I accepted it..

1 God is love and I have discovered he is very much so, far more than I ever imagined.. which was what appealed to me greatly

2 Know the truth and the truth will set you free
In this case it was the biggest impact in my life because I feel I have been set free in many ways and all those *why* questions I have seen so many times on this forum board, have been answered and everything makes sense

My belief and understanding and relationship with God and following out his commands have only brought me personal happiness and contentment beyond anything material this world has to offer

and I have seen it in the lives of those others of my fellow believers that it works right here and now and brings many benefits and protection, that to turn my back on it and try and deny it would be really dumb because the only person I would be hurting in the end is myself

God to me is very real and has a warm loving personality that draws me to him, not through fear of going to burn in some hell, but just because he is so wonderful and I have had the honour of him revealing himself to me and letting me get to know him and the wonderful things he is going to do for mankind.. which is opened to all humans on this earth and can be found..

to find it we need a a certain humility that we are willing to accept there is something greater than us, that does know better than we do, that knows us better than we do, and let our lives be guided by that,

which is why it is described in the bible as a hidden treasure, and not every one will want it or accept it.. so I am not surprised really that there are many out there who don't
you need to view things with a spiritual eye not just physical as I have discovered

 

[BostonAnne]

Re: Re: Re: for those who believe in a god (any god)

What I want to know is, what does it do for you?

With my belief in God comes a sense of infinity. When our physical bodies die, our spirit goes on to something new. That belief makes the idea of death much more comforting - it really isn't the end.

 

[U2Kitten]

Re: Re: Re: Re: for those who believe in a god (any god)

With my belief in God comes a sense of infinity. When our physical bodies die, our spirit goes on to something new. That belief makes the idea of death much more comforting - it really isn't the end.

Me too I honestly can't understand how anyone WOULDN'T want to believe in an afterlife of some type! I believe even our beloved pets will go on and we will see them again.

Also, as far as questioning my beliefs, it's been PROVEN to me. Yes, I have recieved miracles, miracles that saved the life of one of my kids, twice. There have been a few other things too but I won't get into them right now. It was enough to even say that because it's very personal and special to me and it's not something I go around blabbing like gossip. No, this wasn't 'dumb luck', I don't have any luck! Sorry, when something very special is prayed for and recieved almost immediately, that shows me something is at work, and no one or nothing will ever take away my faith. And I don't even go to church. I just feel it.

 

[cardosino]

Re: Re: Re: for those who believe in a god (any god)

I don't care about proof in this thread. What I want to know is, what does it do for you?

God isn't a product that "does" any one specific thing, he just "is", it's hard to elucidate exactly in the terms you've defined, yes He's a source of strength and comfort, but it's more than just a securty blanket thing.


I'll ponder this a bit more and see if I can come up with a better way of describing it.

 

[verte76]

My belief in God provides some stability in my life that wouldn't be there otherwise. Things are always changing. It's nice to have something that doesn't change--God.

 

[nbcrusader]

My question is: how can you find any comfort in sheer dumb luck?

And my comfort doesn't come from knowing God as simply the Almighty Creator. Knowing that He knows me, cares for me and loves me, and was willing to die for me overwhelms me with comfort.

 

[thacraic]

You can't prove there is a god (or gods) any more than I can prove there isn't/aren't. Essentially it comes down to belief.

So my question is:

Do you find the belief in a god or supreme being the creator of the universe more acceptable/comforting than sheer dumb luck (for want of a better way of stating it -- and also 'cause I'm feeling cheeky this evening)? If so, why?


(I can "prove" my belief to me, and you can "prove" your belief to yourself, but we aren't going to change each other's minds, so I'm not looking for essays on why there is or isn't a god/gods. I'm more interested in what belief does for you, if that makes sense.)

Well I think it is bad science to say sheer dumb luck and random chance. All faith aside. It just doesn't gel with the fundementals of Physics.

 

[Irvine511]

My question is: how can you find any comfort in sheer dumb luck?

And my comfort doesn't come from knowing God as simply the Almighty Creator. Knowing that He knows me, cares for me and loves me, and was willing to die for me overwhelms me with comfort.

why do we need comfort from anything?

can't we create comfort through the maintenance of relationships wtih family and friends, armed with the knowledge that all we've got is each other? would this not be more powerful and empowering than the idea of God, since it is of your creation, from blankness you've created love?

 

[U2Kitten]

Not everyone has comfort from family and friends and even if you do, it's sad to think as you all die off you will never see each other again. It's comforting to know you will in eternity.

 

[nbcrusader]

can't we create comfort through the maintenance of relationships wtih family and friends, armed with the knowledge that all we've got is each other? would this not be more powerful and empowering than the idea of God, since it is of your creation, from blankness you've created love?

Think about that. People are imperfect. There are plenty of hurts created by a breakdown in relationship with family and friends.

My comfort through a relationship with Jesus Christ is far more powerful as He is perfect and unchanging.

 

[Irvine511]

Think about that. People are imperfect. There are plenty of hurts created by a breakdown in relationship with family and friends.

My comfort through a relationship with Jesus Christ is far more powerful as He is perfect and unchanging.

i find loving imperfect people to be very powerful; that's what we need, to be loved by others despite our shortcomings. ideally, that's what our parents should do (but, sadly, many don't). still, why do you need comfort like that? why do you demand perfect, unchanging love?

it also strikes me that your characterizations of christ sound very parent-child, like what every child would demand of a parent -- be perfect! don't change!

we could slip into easy Freudian analysis ... but i have issues with Freud myself on other topics. but that aspect of some conceptions of God -- the perfect parent -- does strike me as fufilling some kind of deep psychological longing.

 

[coemgen]

Hey indra, good question. For me, belief is not a good enough word. You believe in Santa Claus. Even the devil believes in God. To me it's about knowing God. Now does that mean I know everything about him? Of course not. However, I can tell you I feel his presence at times. I see him working in my life. I feel his Holy Spirit within me. I (try to) talk to him daily and hear him speak to me through his word and otherwise. It's a relationship. I don't believe in my dad, I know him. The same goes for my heavenly father. And, the cool thing is, he wants this relationship with everyone of us, including all of us on this thread! He sent his son to die in our place for the sins we've committed, and all we have to do is make the next move by saying, "Yes, I accept the sacrifice, I'm sorry for my sins and I give my life to you." That's it! As you turn your life over to him, you'll see the relationship grow. I know you didn't want an essay, and I'm sorry if this is becoming that. Also, I know it sounds like a bunch of trite bunk to people out there, but the biggest proof of God for me is my relationship with him and how he's changed my life dramatically. My hope is that others will let him do the same.

 

[Macfistowannabe]

I don't believe in my dad, I know him. The same goes for my heavenly father.

I like this. I see God as family member, not just a theoretical blanket of comfort for when things go wrong.

 

[Irvine511]

My comfort through a relationship with Jesus Christ is far more powerful as He is perfect and unchanging.

also, just food for thought -- is God perfect? is Jesus perfect? or do you simply believe that He is perfect, and then wrap all your interpretations of life around that central idea, so that it becomes a closed, circular, self-reinforcing system?

like the Bible? you start out with the assumption that it is perfect, and therefore, all is interpreted to reinforce the original assumption.

where is this external evidence of perfection that created the original assumption?

 

[indra]

Thanks to everyone who posted here. I've really enjoyed reading the responses, they are what I was looking for. This is a discussion forum (sometimes even a heated discussion forum ) -- which is great -- but what I was looking for (and got. Thank again!) was more how you feel than the more hard edged discussions (hence the "what does it do for you" line. That wasn't meant to insult btw -- it was just a clumsy way of express what I was looking for).

 

[Macfistowannabe]

Glad you are genuinely interested in where we are coming from, Indra.

 

[intedomine]

Re: Re: for those who believe in a god (any god)

AS an Engineer by trade, I find it infuriating that I can't just run the experiment to prove it to non-believers, but it's beyond doubt in my mind.

The alternative, that God does not exist, is beyond doubt in my mind.

It's the huge philosophical question that will never be answered.

Tolerance must exist however, and politicians who manifest their belief or disbelief in God should not be politicians.

 

[A_Wanderer]

Politicians will act according to their character and belief or lack thereof is an inseperable part of their character.