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Old 01-21-2005, 07:21 AM   #31
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cool thread, indra. what does it mean to you to hear all this? Can I ask why you asked?
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Old 01-21-2005, 07:31 AM   #32
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Re: Re: Re: for those who believe in a god (any god)

Quote:
Originally posted by intedomine

politicians who manifest their belief or disbelief in God should not be politicians.
You'd be asking a tiger to change it's stripes.

A Politician will say/do almost anything for a vote.

Remember, McCarthy was a democrat, he just jumped on a bandwagon which got him votes.
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Old 01-22-2005, 02:55 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by coemgen
cool thread, indra. what does it mean to you to hear all this? Can I ask why you asked?
I do a lot if thinking about the discussions in here and the various arguments and points offered, and it dawned on me that I would probably understand the arguments better if I understood the people behind the arguments better. It's not so much logically, as I understand the concepts (well, most of them ), but what drives the person, and I find that the feelings generated by your belief illustrate that better than the rules and regulations (so to speak). Does that make any sense?
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Old 01-22-2005, 03:29 AM   #34
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I must admit that I have always had problems with my faith, but I really don't like the idea in believing in a God because it 'provides comfort'.

I do not find comfort believing in something that may have been fabricated out of my need for comfort. Yes, it would be an awful shame if nothing happened after Death (something which I fear the most) and we will never see anyone, or anything, again - but to believe in God simply out of this fear renders such a belief void according to my logic.

Nature, and the Universe, for that matter, is a cold place where cold things happen. Life is given and taken constantly, without prejeduice or remorse; it is a fact that must be faced up to, whether we believe in God or not. Any meaning can be extracted from Death (or life, for that matter) is something human, I feel. The problem with my faith is that I find it difficult to reconcile the two; but I refuse to believe in God out of my inability to face up to the coldness and abritrary nature of the Universe.

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P.S - cardosino; please forgive me for asking - do you mean 'the' Senator McCarthy? If so, the man was only a Democrat in that his first attempt at public office (which was unsuccessful) was as a Democrat District Attorney. Everything else that followed was his record as a Republican if I'm not mistaken.
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Old 01-22-2005, 10:32 AM   #35
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I see where Anthony is coming from. I would also like to add that I believe that the distorted truths will be revealed about the world, how it was created, what is and what isn't true about things like evolution, heaven, earth, and love. Do we even know what love is? I would think that we have a rough idea, but I don't think we know entirely. Here on FYM, we often debate things like this: is it more loving to do this, it may hurt some, but it would save many.

Wanting the truth as usual... whatever that may be.
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Old 01-22-2005, 11:51 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by Anthony
I do not find comfort believing in something that may have been fabricated out of my need for comfort.



perfectly said. this is exactly where i'm at right now in my explorations of faith, or absence of faith. i simply don't know what it means to "open your heart/mind to God." how? this doesn't make any sense ... what's the difference between faith and self-delusion? how do you keep yourself honest? how do you reach out to god, adn then know that god has answered your prayer and not that you've answered it for yourself and called it god? and don't give me any "but god wanted you to answer your own prayers." there are so many excuses made for god, the phrase "unaswered prayers" - in addition to being a drippy Garth brooks song, that phrase contains all the problems i have with faith, where the assumption is always validated no matter the outcome because the outcome is only understood through the prism of the original assumption. where can we validation/proof/evidence of God beyond the testimony of the believer?

and don't give me all that Bible/Word of God. that requires the same assumption.
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Old 01-22-2005, 03:46 PM   #37
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Irvine, I agree and hate the phrase "unanswered prayers". But to me, it doesn't waiver my faith. I think God hears our prayers every one. And if they go "unanswered" or don't happen, then it wasn't his will for us. For example, when I was in eight grade, I was happy, had friends and all that. When I first heard my dad say, "I got a call to be a pastor in Iowa, I prayed that God would not have us go. Well, a week later, we moved and my parents still live there after 8 years. But when I look back now and look where my life and my Christianity were going, I guess maybe then God did answer my prayer, just against what I wanted.
I don't mean to begin a debate on this topic and hope I didn't go into the things you didn't want me to touch. But this is what I think.
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Old 01-22-2005, 03:57 PM   #38
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I just don't believe to find some delusional comfort

that is an insult to my intelligence.. I question I search I look around me weigh up the evidence I am not fooling myself ..

even this forum gets me to test and question what I believe and I still come out believing in God and my faith more because of it.. I have absolutely no doubt in my mind God exists denying it would be delusional and I know you will never understand you can't understand till you realise it for yourself..

remember I was an aethist once as well so know exactly where you are coming from
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Old 01-22-2005, 05:18 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by Got Philk?
Irvine, I agree and hate the phrase "unanswered prayers". But to me, it doesn't waiver my faith. I think God hears our prayers every one. And if they go "unanswered" or don't happen, then it wasn't his will for us. For example, when I was in eight grade, I was happy, had friends and all that. When I first heard my dad say, "I got a call to be a pastor in Iowa, I prayed that God would not have us go. Well, a week later, we moved and my parents still live there after 8 years. But when I look back now and look where my life and my Christianity were going, I guess maybe then God did answer my prayer, just against what I wanted.
I don't mean to begin a debate on this topic and hope I didn't go into the things you didn't want me to touch. But this is what I think.

i mean this with all due respect, but it sounds to me like you're doing what i just described: something happens, and then you retroactively justify it as "god's will." what if it had been horrible and your parents had hated every minute? would this then have been a lesson from God in how to deal with adversity? would it have been a lesson in how to cope with change?

what these things always sound like, to me, is that no matter what the result is, you would have found a way to interpret it so that it becomes another piece of evidence supporting your belief in God and in God's plan.

is there anything that could happen to you that could cause you to lose faith in God?
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Old 01-22-2005, 08:02 PM   #40
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Yah, I'm sorry Irvine,
I should have mentioned this before. I did question my faith when we moved. I hated that place. A bunch of conservative Christians who were so closed minded to anything new, especially a new 8th grade boy that was a potential risk to their popularity. I still hate going back there. And because of this hypocritical place I lived in with fake "Christians", I questioned God. I questioned religion. I thought why should I be a part of this God believing "religion". I searched for reasons to not want to be in a relationship with God.
People prayed for me, my parents, youth group leaders, b/c I hated that town and most everyone who lived there.
But b/c I hated that place and people kept on ditching me. Heck, the entire basketball team I was on from 8th grade through high schol ditched me as their friend my freshman year of high school on one great day(Tulip Time). But regardless of all that crap, It didn't stop me from finding out who I wanted to be. And I began realizing that if I wanted to live, I needed to get back to Him. I will not say I was suicidal, but I was most certainly depressed. If it weren't for a guy named Mardy at a Fellowship of Christian Athletes basketball camp, I probably would be a different person. I guess maybe this still is me finding a reason, but it's because of Him that I can smile.


p.s. My mom and dad hate this town too..Nothing really has "worked out" for our family in this town. In fact, my father is being falsely accused and almost run out of town there these days for different reasons(lies). Think I still don't question the church and religion sometimes?
hope this was better...if not, I'll just shut up
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Old 01-22-2005, 08:13 PM   #41
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You know, it was still finding a reason to believe. Sorry. In response to your final question above, the recent Tsunami stretches me and my faith a lot. My best friend, who's AIM away message has been for the last month
"IF god exits, then he is a fucking asshole.
That's right, try and refute me. Possible christian suggestions: 1) Look all the love cuz of it! 2) Doesn't matter if God is to blame. 3) All the sinners and fags got what they deserved.

Nice answers! 150,000 people dead and that's all you can come up with? Just drop your theodicy crap, admit the consequences of your beliefs and I'll get off my soapbox.

Thank you, and "god" bless!!!"

He stretches me more than anything. I still believe, but I struggle for answers all the time. I guess I just believe I will be forever learning and growing.
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Old 01-22-2005, 09:01 PM   #42
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I hear you indra. Your answer to my question actually gave me more insight into the kind of person you are as well. I must say I have a lot of respect for you. You're jokes crack me up, but now I can tell there's more going on in your mind and heart of yours.
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Old 01-22-2005, 09:57 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
i mean this with all due respect, but it sounds to me like you're doing what i just described: something happens, and then you retroactively justify it as "god's will." what if it had been horrible and your parents had hated every minute? would this then have been a lesson from God in how to deal with adversity? would it have been a lesson in how to cope with change?

what these things always sound like, to me, is that no matter what the result is, you would have found a way to interpret it so that it becomes another piece of evidence supporting your belief in God and in God's plan.

is there anything that could happen to you that could cause you to lose faith in God?
I know this probably sounds funny to you, but theoretically some believe that Lincoln's troubled marriage with Mary Todd was set up by God in order for him to prepare to cope with the obstacles he would face ahead of them. If he had the perfect marriage, could he have been prepared to handle the opposition he was dealt with? I would like to believe it was God's will, it IS JUST MY OPINION, but I would like to use Honest Abe as an example.
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Old 01-23-2005, 06:59 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally posted by annj
I just don't believe to find some delusional comfort

that is an insult to my intelligence.. I question I search I look around me weigh up the evidence I am not fooling myself ..


Exactly. I also find it more than a bit insulting or condescending that some (note SOME BUT NOT ALL!!!) athiests here seem to be a bit offensive to anyone who believes, writing it off to 'coincidence' or 'misfires of the brain' or 'a need for comfort.' It's as if they are insinuating we are either stupid, wrong, naive or childish to believe. So, what we have here is exactly what they hate- others judging you by THEIR belief system (or in this case lack thereof) that they ssssooooo hate in conservative Christians! Once again, hypocrisy comes full circle!
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