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Old 05-01-2005, 06:34 AM   #61
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War is altogether different. Where would we be if war had not been waged against Hitler? We'd be goose-stepping all over the place, that's where. I've never heard of fetuses gathering up millions of Jews, gypsies and homosexuals and putting them in concentration camps and gassing them to death.

And innocent casualties will happen in every war. It doesn't make it right, but it is absolutely unavoidable in war.


have pregnant women not been killed in war?
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Old 05-01-2005, 06:49 AM   #62
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whatever you believe about the rightness or wrongness of having sex outside of wedlock; it seems as if people want to *punish* a woman for having sex (and notice how guilt free the men are, and it's usually men who are the most staunchly anti-choice/pro-life).
it's a twisted form of mysogyny that has a level of justification and credibility through glorifying the rights of the unborn fetus, while completely disregarding the woman's. especially if she was stupid and promiscuous enough to get pregnant unintentionally.

this reminds me of another recent thread about one of the southern states debating passing a law to ban books by homosexual authors, to "protect" the minds of innocent children. it's the same twisted logic at play--whenever people are touting restrictive laws to "protect" a certain group, there is frequently a more sinister underlying motive that has nothing to do with protection, and everything to with identifying and punishing "unacceptable" sexual behaviour.
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Old 05-01-2005, 08:10 AM   #63
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this reminds me of another recent thread about one of the southern states debating passing a law to ban books by homosexual authors, to "protect" the minds of innocent children. it's the same twisted logic at play--whenever people are touting restrictive laws to "protect" a certain group, there is frequently a more sinister underlying motive that has nothing to do with protection, and everything to with identifying and punishing "unacceptable" sexual behaviour.
If you think pro-lifers are pro-life because they want to punish people who sleep around, that's ridiculous. We want to save innocent human lives, that's what it's all about.
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Old 05-01-2005, 08:37 AM   #64
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this reminds me of another recent thread about one of the southern states debating passing a law to ban books by homosexual authors, to "protect" the minds of innocent children. it's the same twisted logic at play--whenever people are touting restrictive laws to "protect" a certain group, there is frequently a more sinister underlying motive that has nothing to do with protection, and everything to with identifying and punishing "unacceptable" sexual behaviour.

That's my state, Alabama. The bill was introduced and died because there wasn't a quorum present at the vote.
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Old 05-01-2005, 09:26 AM   #65
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If you think pro-lifers are pro-life because they want to punish people who sleep around, that's ridiculous. We want to save innocent human lives, that's what it's all about.


why destroy one life to save another, especially if that life being brought into the world would be less than fully wanted?

i'm also curious as to an earlier post of yours ... just want to be clear: if having a baby puts the mother's life in danger, should she then still have to give birth to the baby? also, what about severe brith defects? i know a mother of 5 who had an abortion between child 3 and 4 because as the baby developed, the brain didn't, and she would have given birth to a baby without a cerebral cortex. she chose an abortion, and i believe this happened well into the 2nd trimester, because it took that long to determine the baby's development. what should be done in a situation like that?
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Old 05-01-2005, 10:45 AM   #66
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why destroy one life to save another, especially if that life being brought into the world would be less than fully wanted?
I'm not clear on how having a baby but putting it up for adoption "destroy"s a life. Killing a living human being, that pretty much destroys a life.

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i'm also curious as to an earlier post of yours ... just want to be clear: if having a baby puts the mother's life in danger, should she then still have to give birth to the baby?
I don't know how I feel about that. If it's a question of "save this life" or "save that life", I don't have an answer. But I do know that scenario is rare. And the number of women who receives abortions because of "danger issues" is very rare.

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also, what about severe brith defects? i know a mother of 5 who had an abortion between child 3 and 4 because as the baby developed, the brain didn't, and she would have given birth to a baby without a cerebral cortex. she chose an abortion, and i believe this happened well into the 2nd trimester, because it took that long to determine the baby's development. what should be done in a situation like that?
Since I believe that abortion is murder, I cannot in good conscience and in honesty to my beliefs say an abortion is okay. I jsut can't. But I do know that when people start making judgment calls about which babies should be born and which shouldn't, you're going down a slippery slope. I have a nephew who is 26 years old with Cerebral Palsy. In many ways, his mental capacity is less than 10 years old. But I love him as much as I love anyone. He brings light to my life. He has made a positive impact on my life. To think of him not here is a horrible thought.

Mark my words; what may start out as preventing births of baby without cerebral cortexes will eventually blossom into full-blown Aryanism.
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Old 05-01-2005, 10:53 AM   #67
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


I'm not clear on how having a baby but putting it up for adoption "destroy"s a life. Killing a living human being, that pretty much destroys a life.


If every unfit/unwilling woman who finds herself pregnant chose adoption, this argument wouldn't even exist. But the fact remains that a life can also be destroyed when someone is forced to carry a child they don't want or can't take care of. A lifetime of abuse and neglect starting in the mother's womb is something that can't be erased. The damage I've seen caused by unfit and unloving parents has made me wonder more than once why they even chose to give birth in the first place or at least why they kept the child after it was born.
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Old 05-01-2005, 10:57 AM   #68
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If every unfit/unwilling woman who finds herself pregnant chose adoption, this argument wouldn't even exist. But the fact remains that a life can also be destroyed when someone is forced to carry a child they don't want or can't take care of. A lifetime of abuse and neglect starting in the mother's womb is something that can't be erased. The damage I've seen caused by unfit and unloving parents has made me wonder more than once why they even chose to give birth in the first place or at least why they kept the child after it was born.
Here's the answer, then; people need to straighten their crap out. People need to start loving their kids and if that's not possible, give them to people who will love them.

Miscreants and other irresponsible people just need to stop having sex.

Sex is a big responsibility as it can lead to a bigger responsibility - a new human life.
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Old 05-01-2005, 11:01 AM   #69
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


Here's the answer, then; people need to straighten their crap out. People need to start loving their kids and if that's not possible, give them to people who will love them.

Miscreants and other irresponsible people just need to stop having sex.

Sex is a big responsibility as it can lead to a bigger responsibility - a new human life.

On this we agree. Personal responsibility and thinking about someone other than yourself would go a long way towards solving the problems of unwanted pregnancy and mistreatment of kids that are already here.
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Old 05-01-2005, 01:18 PM   #70
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abortion - all for it
marriage - free for all or free for none.
death penalty - all for it
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Old 05-01-2005, 02:37 PM   #71
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Liberals are well-known for advocating numerous personal freedoms, yet when it comes to personal responsibilities, Charles Manson is capable of doing a better job. The abortion issue is a great example, as is the death penalty. They're quick to defend the life of someone who caused great grief on the community, but when it comes to innocent life, they couldn't care less. 80s is right on the money - sex is a big responsibility which could lead to an even bigger responsibility - a human life. Stopping a beating heart is killing. Period. Make abortion illegal, and stop blaming sex ed, and start taking accountability for your own actions. I wouldn't shed a tear for those vicious enough to seek back alley abortions, and refuse to sympathize for their own stupidity.
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Old 05-01-2005, 02:53 PM   #72
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Make abortion illegal, and stop blaming sex ed, and start taking accountability for your own actions. I wouldn't shed a tear for those vicious enough to seek back alley abortions, and refuse to sympathize for their own stupidity.
The rich will just head abroad, as they did decades ago. "Out of sight, out of mind." As for common people, people in the North will head to Canada; people in the South will head to South America or the Caribbean or something (I'm not sure where it is legal exactly).

Those in Middle America will do as they did before: go into the back alley or have a sudden "miscarriage." Think RU-486 is the only substance that can induce abortion? The Middle Ages had plenty of creative substances for that purpose.

Legality or not, people will continue to have them either where they are legal or using other, more creative methods. This fixation on "the law" is merely a method for the Religious Right to try and reassert control over the United States. Nothing more.

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Old 05-01-2005, 03:17 PM   #73
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest
People need to start loving their kids and if that's not possible, give them to people who will love them.
Very true. And don't restrict the number of people who can adopt children, either, as Irvine said. It really doesn't help the pro-life argument when some of the pro-lifers also sit there and say gay people can't adopt children. Yeah. Restrict the number of available adoptive parents, that makes a load of sense!

Anywho, yeah, if we want abortion to stop, instead of a flat out ban on it, let's focus on fixing the problems that lead to women having abortions. Once those problems are fixed, I do not imagine there will be as much talk of abortion anymore.

Angela
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Old 05-01-2005, 03:32 PM   #74
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Legality or not, people will continue to have them either where they are legal or using other, more creative methods. This fixation on "the law" is merely a method for the Religious Right to try and reassert control over the United States. Nothing more.

Melon
Nope. Our "fixation on the law" is an attempt to take a stand against a government officially condoning murder.
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Old 05-01-2005, 03:34 PM   #75
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it's not murder. it's women's rights. look it up.
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