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Old 04-30-2005, 09:59 PM   #46
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Abortion - pro-choice

Gay Marriage - 100% for it.

Gay Adoption - see nothing wrong with it. A good and loving home for a child is all that matters.

Death Penalty - against. Mostly because I think it's more important that an innocent person doesn't get executed by mistake.

Euthanasia - undecided. When I read about individual cases it does make me wish people had that option.
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Old 04-30-2005, 10:04 PM   #47
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Saracene, the cat in your avatar has the cutest face!


(I better not let any of my cats read what I just wrote.... )
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Old 04-30-2005, 10:30 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally posted by U2DMfan


Prove it to be murder and you won't have to make a moral equivalency, it will then be illegal. But you can't do it, so we have this ridiculous whole 'abortion debate'.

Better yet, why do some find it should be illegal, yet in cases of X, Y, Z find it should be allowed? Be consistent.

It's either wrong or it's not. It's either murder or it's not, right?

If the mother's life is in danger, isn't this God's will?
Why is her life more valuable than another, especially her own child

Ahhhhh, this whole debate is RIDICULOUS Why it should only be discussed by people dealing with an unwanted preganancy.
And in doing so, everybody else just needs to shut the fuck up.

Including me. Out!
Chill out!

Did you not understand my question?

It is not a question about about whether abortion is murder or not. It is specifically asked of people who say that they are "morally opposed" to abortion, but think it should be legal.

However, before I go any further, I will ask you to take a good long look at an in-depth, detailed fetal development chart and tell me that human life doesn't begin at conception.

Now, I will ask the question again, since only one person has made an attempt at answering (and that's not you!)

Why are you "morally opposed" to murder if it is not murder? What is morally wrong about it if it is not murder?

And if it is murder, why should it be legal?
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Old 04-30-2005, 10:36 PM   #49
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I'm not morally opposed to abortion, but even if I was I don't think it's just to impose my morals on someone else, especially in a situation such as abortion. Why not, I hear you ask? Because a fetus is essentially a parasite, and I don't think it's fair to ask someone to be host to a parasite she doesn't want.
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Old 04-30-2005, 10:46 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonosSaint




There should not be unwanted children and no woman should be forced to carry a child she does not want. I think the woman trumps here.
I disagree. No innocent human life is less valuable than any others. Being "forced to carry a child for 9 months" should not "trump" another life.

Quote:
Originally posted by BonosSaint

I also think that varying people have varying ideas when life begins--does it begin at conception, while still in the womb when the fetus may be viable outside the womb, or at birth? Depending on your belief, it may affect your decision. But I think the majority of Americans believe it is a personal decision for the woman and her physician..
I don't see how it can be a "personal decision". Science is science, and fact is fact. The fetus in the womb is a human life or it isn't. If it isn't, then what is there to be morally opposed to? If it is, how can killing an innocent human life be anything but murder?

Quote:
Originally posted by BonosSaint
It may be moral murder. I'm not the judge of that...
Someone is the judge of it, and as I said, it either is or it isn't murder. If we "don't know", if there is any reasonable belief that that fetus is a human life (and you know as well as I do that there is), shouldn't we err on the side of life?

By the way, I urge you to take a good long look at a very detailed fetal development chart. It might make you reconsider.

Quote:
Originally posted by BonosSaint
But there is plenty of legal murder--the death penalty, war (both the soldiers and the collateral damage of civilians). We have always made the moral equivalency that some rights conflict with other rights. Abortion is not legal murder because obviously it is not illegal and there is really little legal recognition for a fetus (or unborn child, if you prefer)....
I am against the death penalty, but it's not the same thing. The Death Penalty is reserved for people who have been "convicted" of a heinous crime. Of what crime were fetuses convicted? The crime of "trying to live"?

War is altogether different. Where would we be if war had not been waged against Hitler? We'd be goose-stepping all over the place, that's where. I've never heard of fetuses gathering up millions of Jews, gypsies and homosexuals and putting them in concentration camps and gassing them to death.

And innocent casualties will happen in every war. It doesn't make it right, but it is absolutely unavoidable in war.
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Old 04-30-2005, 10:52 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally posted by indra
I'm not morally opposed to abortion, but even if I was I don't think it's just to impose my morals on someone else, especially in a situation such as abortion. Why not, I hear you ask? Because a fetus is essentially a parasite, and I don't think it's fair to ask someone to be host to a parasite she doesn't want.
Well, you're not morally opposed to it, because you don't think it's a human life. I understand why people think it should be legal if they don't think it's a human life.

If I didn't think it was a human life, I wouldn't think there was anything immoral about abotion at all.

What is "immoral about it if it is not murder?

And about imposing morals, sometimes morals need to be imposed. For instance, if person A thinks it's
immoral to kill a woman, but Person B doesn't, don't you think Person A's moral should be imposed on Person B before Person B goes out and kills his wife for not behaving "properly"?
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Old 04-30-2005, 10:58 PM   #52
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A foetus is a potential human life, but by no means guaranteed.

War is raw human conflict, it is a bad thing ~ but it can achieve positive ends compared to inaction.

Capital punishment is used against those convicted of crime, it should be reserved for the highest crimes and ones where the punishment can deliver some good.
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Old 05-01-2005, 04:17 AM   #53
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I think the debate on abortion goes nowhere, because each side starts with a different interpretation of the beginning of life and
whose rights trump whose? There is precious little common ground. No common ground, no basis for argument. We just have conflicting monologues.

And I have seen a fetal development chart. Did not change my position one iota. I already said I am uncomfortable when the fetus reaches viability. But as long as that fetus is part of a woman's body, I still maintain it is her call. You can't make her have the baby. If abortion is illegal here, she will go elsewhere. And you cannot imprison her until she has the child, or pull the fetus out of her when you have determined viability. What is your practical solution for a woman who does not want to bear the child she is carrying?

80'sU2, what is your opinion on birth control?
What is your opinion on current adoption policy that makes it so hard for a couple to adopt here, they go overseas? A policy that says that once the adoptive couple has bonded with the child, the birth mother can still take the child back. A policy that says that a child may have the right to find his/her birth parent when that birth parent does not want to be found--ever.

I think the more roadblocks we put in the more abortions there may be. Make adoption easier and more advantageous to the mother. Make it attractive to all parties.

And for the record, I think that abortion is a lousy form of birth control.
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Old 05-01-2005, 04:43 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonosSaint
What is your practical solution for a woman who does not want to bear the child she is carrying?
Since I believe that abortion is murder, my practical solution for a woman who does not want to the bear the child she is carrying is that she should carry it to term and then put it up for adoption. That may sound tough to you, but women give birth to babies they didn't want to have every day. If I am to be consistent with my position that abortion is murder, I can have no other answer.

If people can't afford babies financially or emotionally, the surest way to prevent it is to not have sex.
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Old 05-01-2005, 04:48 AM   #55
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No common ground, 80's.
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Old 05-01-2005, 04:53 AM   #56
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Common sense says any woman who does not want to have a baby should get on the pill and be really careful with it and learn how antibiotics and other drugs affect the reliability of such. If this is not an option, any fella she shags should wear a condom. Then she will not have to make the terribly heartbreaking decision. There are so many steps before an abortion, I dont think society is starting the debate at the right place.
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Old 05-01-2005, 05:00 AM   #57
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Common ground: I'm sure we can all agree that the abortion rate should be zero.

Prevention is better than a cure. I think it would be more wise if, instead of debating the definition of a life, both sides of the debate could work together to lower the abortion rate.
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Old 05-01-2005, 05:23 AM   #58
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Abortion - Perfectly OK. Condom's break, women are raped, and some people aren't ready to be mothers. Why ruin the mother's life by FORCING HER to raise a child she doesn't want. An unborn child's life, in my view, is pretty worthless anyway. Who can remember when they were in the womb anyway. There's nothing to remember, no pleasure at all. Ya can't look back and reminisce over those "wonderful days in the womb." Also, the unborn child is mentally undeveloped. Indeed the brain does control the movement of the child, yet I doubt that the child can consciously feel or express any emotion towards anything. It's brain ain't developed enough yet.
Nevertheless, sexually active women should be encouraged to regularly (fortnightly maybe?) check as to whether they are pregnant so they can decide if they want a kid or not. There is no need to regret an abortion, as ya can always get pregant again.
No abortions after 3 or 4 months.

Gay Marriage - Not an issue. People who even make an issue of it should be laughed off.
Homosexual tendancies are natural, marriage is manmade.
All for it, and let's promote it, even if we are heterosexuals.

Gay Adoption - All for it. A child can be raised perfectly well with same sex parents. Not an issue at all

Death Penalty - Against, cause a better punishment is to lock murderers and rapists up for a life behind bars, cause they can FEEL the regret and they can FEEL the punishment. Death is a cop out.

Guns - Against. Why risk another Columbine? They always get in the wrong hands. One of the major problems with the US of A is the sadistic pride they have in "having the right to bear arms". You've seen what happened in Columbine haven't you? Why risk it for some crappy and outdated "right."
Might as well legalise murder while we are at it.

Euthanaisa - if someone is in pure agony and there is no way of making them feel better, kill them off.
I'd rather feel nothing than feel the most agonising of agonies.



There ya go....
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Old 05-01-2005, 05:56 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally posted by Axver
Common ground: I'm sure we can all agree that the abortion rate should be zero.

Prevention is better than a cure. I think it would be more wise if, instead of debating the definition of a life, both sides of the debate could work together to lower the abortion rate.
excellent post, Axver.
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Old 05-01-2005, 06:33 AM   #60
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what i don't understand is that -- broadly speaking -- people who are most passionately anti-choice/pro-life are those who are also against comprehensive sex education, gay adoption, universal health care, quality child care programs, etc. it seems to be there's a huge gap between being "pro-life" and actually being pro-birth. i always find the "just don't have sex" argument suspicious ... whatever you believe about the rightness or wrongness of having sex outside of wedlock; it seems as if people want to *punish* a woman for having sex (and notice how guilt free the men are, and it's usually men who are the most staunchly anti-choice/pro-life).
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