For or Against or In Between

[BonosSaint]

3) Lumping "gay marriage" and "abortion" in the same breath: a ticket to getting me infuriated[/B]

Didn't intend to equate them. I just knew they are very divisive issues and this is the only similarity I meant to ascribe to them.

1. Abortion-- Ideally, unlimited rights first trimester, slightly more
state interest second semester(maybe) and third trimester.
However, since this can be abused by the government,
while I think they have an interest, practically I support
pro choice through term.

2. Gay marriage--yes. On a strategic level, I think it might
be better now to make the case for civil union and once
it becomes de facto, it is easier to accept the term marriage
for some people. However, even not being gay, I can see
how gays would want full rights and language right now,
so I support that.

I also support civil unions between nonsexual partners,
who trust each other more than they do their families.
Anyone should be able to choose who will make their
medical decisions, who will inherit, etc., without doing
legal cartwheels.

3. Death penalty. I'm not philosophically against it. But the
human error (or worse) makes it untenable.

4. Gay adoption--hell, yes.

5. Guns. Hunting rifles, fine. Handguns, with more restrictions.
Cannot see any logical reason for owning an assault weapon.
Support training and licensing.

 

[verte76]

Damn, forgot to post my position on capital punishment. I'm against it. You don't solve any problems by taking the life of someone who took life. I can see why people wouldn't agree and think that the person doesn't deserve to live, but I don't agree with this.

 

[BostonAnne]

a) Abortion - Pro choice, in agreement with BAW, Anthony, Irvine, etc. Preventative measures via education etc. are the answer.

b) Gay marriage - completely for it.

c) Gay people adopting - completely for it.

d) Death penalty - against it.

e) Guns - against.

 

[dandy]

abortion--a necessary evil, symptomatic of a larger problem. should be available with no questions asked, ideally covered by medicare, backed up with education and free birth control.

gay marriage--all for it. if two people are in love and want to spend their lives together, why not? if you don't agree with it, don't marry someone of the same sex. it's really that simple.

gay adoption--if you're capable and willing, again, why not? there are too many kids out there who need stable, loving homes to be screening qualified people out on such irrelavant grounds.

death penalty--against it. two wrongs don't make a right. although A_Wanderer raises a persuasive argument for war criminals and terrorists, i'm not sure that this is a decision human beings are qualified to make.

guns--it's not the guns that bother me, it's the people who use them. no amount of gun control is going to stop violent crime--the vast majority of the weapons used by criminals are illegal. a national registry of legal guns is not going to change a thing.

 

[Axver]

1. Abortion - totally against.
2. Gay marriage - I can't tell someone who they should or shouldn't love. If two people of the same sex want to get married, no-one can reasonably tell them they can't. Disagree with homosexuality all you want; it's not your life, not your moral decisions, and not your place to interfere in another's right to marry who they love.
3. Gay adoption - I see no reason why not. The point is to have a good home environment, not what sexuality the parents are.
4. Death penalty - Against, though I honestly can't say I mind rapists or murderers being put to death. I have to do some serious emotional detachment on this issue.
5. Guns - illegal. I'd be willing to make an exception for some law enforcement divisions. The less guns in society, though, the better.

 

[GibsonGirl]

Abortion - Against it, in most cases. I'm a bit hazy on the issue when things like rape are brought into the picture. But I think that abortion can lead people, especially teenagers, into believing that it's okay to have unprotected sex because they can just destroy the baby if an unplanned pregnancy does occur. To me, that's completely wrong.

Gay Marriage - Eh. I fully support civil unions, but I'm not really all for marriage. I guess I'm somewhat okay with it, but I'm a bit more on the traditional side when it comes to holy matrimony. But in the end, I'm not the one marrying a woman, so I suppose it really isn't any of my business.

Gay Adoption - Seems alright to me. A child with a home and loving parents, regardless of his/her parents' sexual preferences, will be better off than one without.

Death Penalty - I think a murderer will suffer more by being locked up for life, as opposed to a quick injection. Thus, I can't say I support the death penalty. Also, innocent people have been murdered because of it, and I think that's unacceptable.

Guns - Should be okay for hunting purposes, but I don't see the need to possess a handgun for protection purposes. I'm of the opinion that if you want to protect yourself in your home, you should get a good security system. Or move to Canada. I haven't been scared living in Canada once during my four years here.

 

[phanan]

Abortion - I personally don't like it, but who says the government should tell a woman how to treat her own body? I agree with others that education is the best measure.

Gay Marriage - For it. Why should the government care if two people, regardless of sex, really love each other? It's not their business anyway.

Gay Adoption - For it, for the same reasons expressed by others.

Death Penalty - Against it. Killing people just gets them off easy.

Guns - Against any kind of assault weapons. Someone please tell me what is the point in having one? As for hunting purposes, I personally don't do it, but I understand that others do, and in certain areas, it is needed for wildlife control, so in that sense, I think it is OK.

 

[U2DMfan]

1. Abortion-personal decisions that I don't think should be public debate.
2. Gay Marriage-I don't beleive much in marriage anyways, if two gay persons want to ruin a perfectly good relationship by getting married, have at it.
3. Gay adoption-I don't care who adopts children if they are willing to love them, and give them support. It is a lot to ask of anyone to support a child that is not their own flesh and blood. Why would we lower the adoption pool by omitting people because of their sexual preferences? Silly.
4. Death Penalty-against it 99% of the time.
In the case of someone like Timothy McVeigh, who murdered 168 people, 18 or 19 of them small children. Then later admitted to it, never showed any remorse, and never gave up who else helped him. He was a waste of time and energy. A lost cause, and was incapable of being redeemed or forgiven. By anyone.

But to show no remorse, even on his deathbed. It was just the only proper procedure. I don't look at his execution as deterrent to anyone, as I don't think capital punishment is deterrent, I just look at it and say this was the only fair way to handle this so called human being.

A murder who fucked up and made bad mistakes, and expresses remorse, and maybe even finds God, why put these people to death? makes no sense. Put them in a cell for the rest of their life.

It's also not fool proof. But it should be available, and it should be used if needed.

5. Guns- "never wanted to own one".. ahh great song.
But yeah, never have or wanted to own one, have only fired one a long time ago when I was fishing. I am not some NRA guy, but I think guns should absolutely be kept legal. I am not sure automatic weapons are needed though. But I think they should be legal.

The criminal can get what's illegal, can the average law obiding citizen? Among many other things. Regulate it, register gun owners, do all the things that ar done now, keep them legal to the average person.

 

[indra]

Abortion -- pro choice

Gay Marriages -- While I don't know why anyone would want to be married, I think those who want to marry should.

Gay people adopting -- no problem to me

Death Penalty -- I don't see that it works, and fear that innocent people will be and have been executed (which is not only a grave injustice for them, but also makes sure that the actual perp. is no longer even sought). So against it. I do realise that if a loved one was brutally murdered, I would want the guilty party dead.

Guns -- don't really care for them, and the broadening of concealed carry laws in many states (including mine) makes me queasy. However, actually getting rid of them (in the US) stands less chance than a snowball in hell, so I'd be happy with mandatory education/certification before anyone is able to own/possess a gun.

Some other issues:

Support blunt and aggressive sex ed in schools starting at a very early age, including condom distribution and at least information on family planning clinics (for other birth control methods, etc.)

Support needle exchange programs

Support legalisation of most currently illegal drugs. I do realise there will be problems, but I feel that for society in general the problems in a society that allows legal, regulated, and taxed drugs will be less than the current drug related problems.

 

[80sU2isBest]

I have 2 questions for all who say they're "morally against abortion" but think it should be legal. I'm not trying to pick a fight; I'd like to know what you think.

If it is not murder, why are you morally against it?

If it IS murder, why do think it should be legal?

 

[BonosSaint]

I have 2 questions for all who say they're "morally against abortion" but think it should be legal. I'm not trying to pick a fight; I'd like to know what you think.

If it is not murder, why are you morally against it?

If it IS murder, why do think it should be legal?

There should not be unwanted children and no woman should be forced to carry a child she does not want. I think the woman trumps here.

I also think that varying people have varying ideas when life begins--does it begin at conception, while still in the womb when the fetus may be viable outside the womb, or at birth? Depending on your belief, it may affect your decision. But I think the majority of Americans believe it is a personal decision for the woman and her physician.

I have some personal qualms when the child inside the womb could survive outside of it because that is my personal definion of the beginning of life. But I defer to the woman's choice. It may be moral murder. I'm not the judge of that.

But there is plenty of legal murder--the death penalty, war (both the soldiers and the collateral damage of civilians). We have always made the moral equivalency that some rights conflict with other rights. Abortion is not legal murder because obviously it is not illegal and there is really little legal recognition for a fetus (or unborn child, if you prefer).

Not directed at you, 80's U2.

But many religious and political fundamentalists seem to believe the right to life begins at conception and ends at birth.

 

[BonosSaint]

Some more divisive questions:

1. Euthanasia (sp)? If a person is terminal and in great pain
and begging you to perform a mercy killing, is it moral to do
so? Is it moral not to?
2. Is there a cultural divide between people with children and
people without children?
3. Does the worker need the boss more or the boss need the
worker more?
4. Is forgiveness a state of mind, a conciliatory gesture, a
conscious decision to not retaliate (any or all of the above)
without any remorse from the perpetrator or is remorse a
requirement for forgiveness? Even if there is remorse, is
proper punishment required before forgiveness can be
granted?
5. How many multiple marriages and multiple families does it
take to give lie to the claim that society finds marriage and
monogamy sacred?

 

[Angela Harlem]

a) Abortion - Against. Against all trimester terminations. The foetus not resembling a human in it's early stages does not mean it isn't a human life, as far as I'm concerned. My view is based on that of the foetus, but I will shift for the woman in cases of rape. Birth defects as well, I shift on. Life.

b) Gay marriage - For it. People do not vote on whom I can marry, so why can they vote on who gay people can?

c) Gay people adopting - For it. I dont see how a physical attraction to the same sex makes or breaks a parent. Parenting is a different topic. Write this down if you have trouble remembering.

d) Death penalty - Against it. Life.

e) Guns - Against. Yep, life again. Shove your ammendments up your arses. It's a fucking gun for God's sake. Same goes for knives and any other weapon. Make every citizen bloody responsible. Go out and get a job, work, live in your houses, have your hobbies, live a normal life. You will find no need for guns in this. Lock up all who refuse in Ant's "Camp Ant".

f) Ethenasia - For. Those in pain and suffering and at the end, have lived their full lives already. Why commit a person to untold suffering when it is against their wishes. This mostly applies to those of sound mind to decide for themselves. In other cases, it often already occurs as we hear of life support machines being turned off and the family is allowed to begin their mourning.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

1. Euthanasia (sp)? If a person is terminal and in great pain
and begging you to perform a mercy killing, is it moral to do
so? Is it moral not to? I personally think if someone is terminally ill and wishes to end their suffering, wants the plug pulled, all that sort...let them. We do it with pets, why hold such reserve for humans? I know if I, god forbid, were to ever find myself in such a state, I would want the plug pulled, and since it is my life and my body, and since I would be the one going through the pain, I should be entitled to make that choice. Would it be hard on my family and friends? Yes. But it still should be an available choice for those who want it. The only thing I'd say about euthanasia is that people should make it clear in writing and things like that that this is what they would want if they found themselves in that state, to avoid another Terri Schiavo case.

In regards to the morality of the issue, that's up to each person to decide whether or not it's moral. But their morality shouldn't be expected to be everyone's morality, and that goes for both sides. This issue should be a personal one, no government involvement, and it should be decided not based on how moral or immoral it is, but based on what seems most logical, what the best option would be for the one who is suffering.
2. Is there a cultural divide between people with children and
people without children? In some ways, I think there can be, as those without children tend to have different concerns and different lifestyles than those who do. That's not always the case, no, but that's how it can be.
3. Does the worker need the boss more or the boss need the
worker more? I think both need each other equally, as both can learn from each other.
4. Is forgiveness a state of mind, a conciliatory gesture, a
conscious decision to not retaliate (any or all of the above)
without any remorse from the perpetrator or is remorse a
requirement for forgiveness? Even if there is remorse, is
proper punishment required before forgiveness can be
granted? Forgiveness can be any one of the three. Everyone is different, everyone expresses forgiveness in different ways and for different reasons. And no, I don't think proper punishment is always required-if someone believes the person who wronged them is genuinely sorry, that may be all they need to forgive them.
5. How many multiple marriages and multiple families does it
take to give lie to the claim that society finds marriage and
monogamy sacred? Heh, well, I've personally already seen quite a bit of cynicism regarding the concept of marriage with a lot of people that I talk to because of the things you brought up, the multiple marriages and such. But I think that the fact that that stuff goes on is proof that society has no room to be making decisions regarding people's personal love lives.

Also, I agree with indra's answers to the few extra issues brought up in her post.

Angela

 

[U2DMfan]

I have 2 questions for all who say they're "morally against abortion" but think it should be legal. I'm not trying to pick a fight; I'd like to know what you think.

If it is not murder, why are you morally against it?

If it IS murder, why do think it should be legal?

Prove it to be murder and you won't have to make a moral equivalency, it will then be illegal. But you can't do it, so we have this ridiculous whole 'abortion debate'.

Better yet, why do some find it should be illegal, yet in cases of X, Y, Z find it should be allowed? Be consistent.

It's either wrong or it's not. It's either murder or it's not, right?

If the mother's life is in danger, isn't this God's will?
Why is her life more valuable than another, especially her own child

Ahhhhh, this whole debate is RIDICULOUS Why it should only be discussed by people dealing with an unwanted preganancy.
And in doing so, everybody else just needs to shut the fuck up.

Including me. Out!

 

[Saracene]

Abortion - pro-choice

Gay Marriage - 100% for it.

Gay Adoption - see nothing wrong with it. A good and loving home for a child is all that matters.

Death Penalty - against. Mostly because I think it's more important that an innocent person doesn't get executed by mistake.

Euthanasia - undecided. When I read about individual cases it does make me wish people had that option.

 

[indra]

Saracene, the cat in your avatar has the cutest face!


(I better not let any of my cats read what I just wrote.... )

 

[80sU2isBest]

Prove it to be murder and you won't have to make a moral equivalency, it will then be illegal. But you can't do it, so we have this ridiculous whole 'abortion debate'.

Better yet, why do some find it should be illegal, yet in cases of X, Y, Z find it should be allowed? Be consistent.

It's either wrong or it's not. It's either murder or it's not, right?

If the mother's life is in danger, isn't this God's will?
Why is her life more valuable than another, especially her own child

Ahhhhh, this whole debate is RIDICULOUS Why it should only be discussed by people dealing with an unwanted preganancy.
And in doing so, everybody else just needs to shut the fuck up.

Including me. Out!

Chill out!

Did you not understand my question?

It is not a question about about whether abortion is murder or not. It is specifically asked of people who say that they are "morally opposed" to abortion, but think it should be legal.

However, before I go any further, I will ask you to take a good long look at an in-depth, detailed fetal development chart and tell me that human life doesn't begin at conception.

Now, I will ask the question again, since only one person has made an attempt at answering (and that's not you!)

Why are you "morally opposed" to murder if it is not murder? What is morally wrong about it if it is not murder?

And if it is murder, why should it be legal?

 

[indra]

I'm not morally opposed to abortion, but even if I was I don't think it's just to impose my morals on someone else, especially in a situation such as abortion. Why not, I hear you ask? Because a fetus is essentially a parasite, and I don't think it's fair to ask someone to be host to a parasite she doesn't want.

 

[80sU2isBest]

There should not be unwanted children and no woman should be forced to carry a child she does not want. I think the woman trumps here.

I disagree. No innocent human life is less valuable than any others. Being "forced to carry a child for 9 months" should not "trump" another life.

I also think that varying people have varying ideas when life begins--does it begin at conception, while still in the womb when the fetus may be viable outside the womb, or at birth? Depending on your belief, it may affect your decision. But I think the majority of Americans believe it is a personal decision for the woman and her physician..

I don't see how it can be a "personal decision". Science is science, and fact is fact. The fetus in the womb is a human life or it isn't. If it isn't, then what is there to be morally opposed to? If it is, how can killing an innocent human life be anything but murder?

It may be moral murder. I'm not the judge of that...

Someone is the judge of it, and as I said, it either is or it isn't murder. If we "don't know", if there is any reasonable belief that that fetus is a human life (and you know as well as I do that there is), shouldn't we err on the side of life?

By the way, I urge you to take a good long look at a very detailed fetal development chart. It might make you reconsider.

But there is plenty of legal murder--the death penalty, war (both the soldiers and the collateral damage of civilians). We have always made the moral equivalency that some rights conflict with other rights. Abortion is not legal murder because obviously it is not illegal and there is really little legal recognition for a fetus (or unborn child, if you prefer)....

I am against the death penalty, but it's not the same thing. The Death Penalty is reserved for people who have been "convicted" of a heinous crime. Of what crime were fetuses convicted? The crime of "trying to live"?

War is altogether different. Where would we be if war had not been waged against Hitler? We'd be goose-stepping all over the place, that's where. I've never heard of fetuses gathering up millions of Jews, gypsies and homosexuals and putting them in concentration camps and gassing them to death.

And innocent casualties will happen in every war. It doesn't make it right, but it is absolutely unavoidable in war.

 

[80sU2isBest]

I'm not morally opposed to abortion, but even if I was I don't think it's just to impose my morals on someone else, especially in a situation such as abortion. Why not, I hear you ask? Because a fetus is essentially a parasite, and I don't think it's fair to ask someone to be host to a parasite she doesn't want.

Well, you're not morally opposed to it, because you don't think it's a human life. I understand why people think it should be legal if they don't think it's a human life.

If I didn't think it was a human life, I wouldn't think there was anything immoral about abotion at all.

What is "immoral about it if it is not murder?

And about imposing morals, sometimes morals need to be imposed. For instance, if person A thinks it's
immoral to kill a woman, but Person B doesn't, don't you think Person A's moral should be imposed on Person B before Person B goes out and kills his wife for not behaving "properly"?

 

[A_Wanderer]

A foetus is a potential human life, but by no means guaranteed.

War is raw human conflict, it is a bad thing ~ but it can achieve positive ends compared to inaction.

Capital punishment is used against those convicted of crime, it should be reserved for the highest crimes and ones where the punishment can deliver some good.

 

[BonosSaint]

I think the debate on abortion goes nowhere, because each side starts with a different interpretation of the beginning of life and
whose rights trump whose? There is precious little common ground. No common ground, no basis for argument. We just have conflicting monologues.

And I have seen a fetal development chart. Did not change my position one iota. I already said I am uncomfortable when the fetus reaches viability. But as long as that fetus is part of a woman's body, I still maintain it is her call. You can't make her have the baby. If abortion is illegal here, she will go elsewhere. And you cannot imprison her until she has the child, or pull the fetus out of her when you have determined viability. What is your practical solution for a woman who does not want to bear the child she is carrying?

80'sU2, what is your opinion on birth control?
What is your opinion on current adoption policy that makes it so hard for a couple to adopt here, they go overseas? A policy that says that once the adoptive couple has bonded with the child, the birth mother can still take the child back. A policy that says that a child may have the right to find his/her birth parent when that birth parent does not want to be found--ever.

I think the more roadblocks we put in the more abortions there may be. Make adoption easier and more advantageous to the mother. Make it attractive to all parties.

And for the record, I think that abortion is a lousy form of birth control.

 

[80sU2isBest]

What is your practical solution for a woman who does not want to bear the child she is carrying?

Since I believe that abortion is murder, my practical solution for a woman who does not want to the bear the child she is carrying is that she should carry it to term and then put it up for adoption. That may sound tough to you, but women give birth to babies they didn't want to have every day. If I am to be consistent with my position that abortion is murder, I can have no other answer.

If people can't afford babies financially or emotionally, the surest way to prevent it is to not have sex.

 

[BonosSaint]

No common ground, 80's.

 

[Angela Harlem]

Common sense says any woman who does not want to have a baby should get on the pill and be really careful with it and learn how antibiotics and other drugs affect the reliability of such. If this is not an option, any fella she shags should wear a condom. Then she will not have to make the terribly heartbreaking decision. There are so many steps before an abortion, I dont think society is starting the debate at the right place.

 

[Axver]

Common ground: I'm sure we can all agree that the abortion rate should be zero.

Prevention is better than a cure. I think it would be more wise if, instead of debating the definition of a life, both sides of the debate could work together to lower the abortion rate.

 

[intedomine]

Abortion - Perfectly OK. Condom's break, women are raped, and some people aren't ready to be mothers. Why ruin the mother's life by FORCING HER to raise a child she doesn't want. An unborn child's life, in my view, is pretty worthless anyway. Who can remember when they were in the womb anyway. There's nothing to remember, no pleasure at all. Ya can't look back and reminisce over those "wonderful days in the womb." Also, the unborn child is mentally undeveloped. Indeed the brain does control the movement of the child, yet I doubt that the child can consciously feel or express any emotion towards anything. It's brain ain't developed enough yet.
Nevertheless, sexually active women should be encouraged to regularly (fortnightly maybe?) check as to whether they are pregnant so they can decide if they want a kid or not. There is no need to regret an abortion, as ya can always get pregant again.
No abortions after 3 or 4 months.

Gay Marriage - Not an issue. People who even make an issue of it should be laughed off.
Homosexual tendancies are natural, marriage is manmade.
All for it, and let's promote it, even if we are heterosexuals.

Gay Adoption - All for it. A child can be raised perfectly well with same sex parents. Not an issue at all

Death Penalty - Against, cause a better punishment is to lock murderers and rapists up for a life behind bars, cause they can FEEL the regret and they can FEEL the punishment. Death is a cop out.

Guns - Against. Why risk another Columbine? They always get in the wrong hands. One of the major problems with the US of A is the sadistic pride they have in "having the right to bear arms". You've seen what happened in Columbine haven't you? Why risk it for some crappy and outdated "right."
Might as well legalise murder while we are at it.

Euthanaisa - if someone is in pure agony and there is no way of making them feel better, kill them off.
I'd rather feel nothing than feel the most agonising of agonies.



There ya go....

 

[dandy]

Common ground: I'm sure we can all agree that the abortion rate should be zero.

Prevention is better than a cure. I think it would be more wise if, instead of debating the definition of a life, both sides of the debate could work together to lower the abortion rate.

excellent post, Axver.

 

[Irvine511]

what i don't understand is that -- broadly speaking -- people who are most passionately anti-choice/pro-life are those who are also against comprehensive sex education, gay adoption, universal health care, quality child care programs, etc. it seems to be there's a huge gap between being "pro-life" and actually being pro-birth. i always find the "just don't have sex" argument suspicious ... whatever you believe about the rightness or wrongness of having sex outside of wedlock; it seems as if people want to *punish* a woman for having sex (and notice how guilt free the men are, and it's usually men who are the most staunchly anti-choice/pro-life).