For Melon and Irvine

[80sU2isBest]

Melon and Irvine,

First I want to apologize to both of you for the times I have replied in anger toward you. I don't reach the level that some do, calling people names (and no I'm not talking about you two), but I do go off on angry rants, and invariably, it makes me feel bad when I do that.

Secondly, I'd like to tell you that I have come to an understanding that I didn't have at the beginning of our battles. While I still believe that homosexual relationships are wrong, I can now say that since you don't believe it is, I can understand why you would be so mad at conservative politicians. My equally conservative Christian friend has helped guide me to that realization. She has has this amazing ability to step into other people's shoes, which is a quality I lack. The truth is that if I thought my rights were being denied, I'd be mad, also.

But I would not be honest with you if I didn't offer this bit of what I hope is constructive criticism. The whole thing I have objected to the most in all our battles is that you two keep bringing up your hatred of the religious right, even in conversations that previously didn't deal with the issue. I've got to say, I don't think this is an effective manner of getting your point across. It tends to alienate those you should be trying to reach with your ideas, those of us who disagree. The majority of people in this forum agree with you, so if you keep up the constant, incessant bashing, you're only preaching to the choir. If that's your intention, fine, but don't be surprised if others get upset with you about it, as I have.

I should have just said these things from the very beginning. It is calm, rational, and goes a longer way toward bridging the gap between people who have differing opinions. I couldn't have said some things, because I didn't understand them at first - I learned them. But I should have reacted more calmly; a a caalm word turns away wrath, not anger.

 

[Dreadsox]

Well said

 

[the soul waits]

Took guts to post this, 80s,

 

[verte76]

Took guts to post this, 80s,

Absolutely.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Thanks.

I've been very high-strung and angry lately, and I hate that feeling.

 

[Dreadsox]

Thanks.

I've been very high-strung and angry lately, and I hate that feeling.

I have felt that way too recently....

Psalms...have helped for some reason.

 

[melon]

But I would not be honest with you if I didn't offer this bit of what I hope is constructive criticism. The whole thing I have objected to the most in all our battles is that you two keep bringing up your hatred of the religious right, even in conversations that previously didn't deal with the issue. I've got to say, I don't think this is an effective manner of getting your point across. It tends to alienate those you should be trying to reach with your ideas, those of us who disagree. The majority of people in this forum agree with you, so if you keep up the constant, incessant bashing, you're only preaching to the choir. If that's your intention, fine, but don't be surprised if others get upset with you about it, as I have.

Allow me to substitute the phrase "Religious Right" for "homosexuality," and you'll see why most of us have abandoned religion en masse. Rather than accepting us for who we are, a lot of religious folk create these nonsensical arguments that flat-out don't hold up from our side of the aisle.

You cannot reach out to an entity disinterested in compromise or learning. My only solace, apparently, is that people die. And with each day that passes is one day closer to younger generations taking control, the vast majority of who have been able to reconcile faith with reason.

In the meantime, I guess I'll have to continue my solitary study of religion. It's quite satisfying, even if it is a bit too solitary, at times.

Melon

 

[financeguy]

The problem is that we seem to have two irreconcilable positions here. I would add my voice to those who thanked 80sU2isBest for posting this thread but I can see Melon's point of view that it is difficult to compromise with people (I don't mean 80s) who say that if you're a homosexual, you are fundamentally 'disordered', as for example the Vatican has said.

 

[starsgoblue]

All I can think of is the fact that Jesus never ever saw a person by thier labels, but by there hearts.

I hope you both can find some comfort somewhere where you both overlap.

 

[Liesje]

I think what we all need is a few decent threads without the whole homosexuality debate being thrown into the mix. I support gay rights 110%, but it seems like any thread on anything turns into a gay rights/gay marriage debate. I think we all know where we stand on this issue and it would be nice to have a break.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

All I can think of is the fact that Jesus never ever saw a person by thier labels, but by there hearts.

I hope you both can find some comfort somewhere where you both overlap.

I'll second this post.

Everyone just needs some deep breaths and some stress-free talk and time out and everything . It's nice to see some peace trying to be made here .

Angela

 

[BrownEyedBoy]

Humility is a very valuable virtue.

 

[beli]

Re: Re: For Melon and Irvine

You cannot reach out to an entity disinterested in compromise or learning.

Perhaps not but it is commendable that 80sU2isBest tried.

 

[MaxFisher]

Props to 80'sU2isBest for his heartfelt attempt at reconciliation.

Melon- your only solace is that people die?
Let me commend you on such a positive and progressive outlook to solving such a difficult issue.

 

[coemgen]

Nice job 80's.

 

[deep]

Melon and Irvine,

First I want to apologize to both of you for the times I have replied in anger toward you. I don't reach the level that some do, calling people names (and no I'm not talking about you two), but I do go off on angry rants, and invariably, it makes me feel bad when I do that.

Secondly, I'd like to tell you that I have come to an understanding that I didn't have at the beginning of our battles. While I still believe that homosexual relationships are wrong, I can now say that since you don't believe it is, I can understand why you would be so mad at conservative politicians. My equally conservative Christian friend has helped guide me to that realization. She has has this amazing ability to step into other people's shoes, which is a quality I lack. The truth is that if I thought my rights were being denied, I'd be mad, also.

The above is commendable

I am glad your friend was able to help you with empathy.

I have always believed you to be a very decent person. I see you as one who lives in a very conservative environment where your views may be more tolerant than many of the people you associate with, I could be wrong.

I have many close friends and members in my immediate family the are conservative Christians. They say and believe things that are very intolerant. In discussions with them I ask them to elaborate. Often times they hesitate to reply, when the mirror is held up from a different perspective.

The problem with Conservative Christians is that they are the ones that are responsible for the Conservative politicians that you seem to have no problem disagreeing with.

Believe me I understand what I am talking about because for two thirds of my life I was in your group and made what I believed, at the time, were convincing arguments. I thought life was simple then, right or wrong, good or evil, that there was an absolute line that could be drawn on just about everything.

I sincerely commend your intentions with this thread and hope anything I wrote will not be construed as an attack.
I don’t expect you or anyone to agree with everything I post, but it is constructive when we can dialogue.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Re: Re: For Melon and Irvine

I am glad your friend was able to help you with empathy.

Thanks very much. She actually helps me see a lot of things I would have difficulty seeing otherwise. She is a good influence on me.

I have always believed you to be a very decent person. I see you as one who lives in a very conservative environment where your views may be more tolerant than many of the people you associate with, I could be wrong.

Truth is that most of my friends are very tolerant. I'm more of a "finger-wagger" than some of my friends, especially my female friend that helps me so much. This may be hard for some people to believe, but in my real life, my "finger-wagging" is usually reserved for preachers who preach what I believe to be false doctrine. False doctrine irks me to no end, and I have been known to leave churches because of it.

I sincerely commend your intentions with this thread and hope anything I wrote will not be construed as an attack.
I don’t expect you or anyone to agree with everything I post, but it is constructive when we can dialogue.

I really appreciate your kind words, especially since you and I have had our little tiffs. I also appreciate the barf bag you gave me in that other thread!

 

[80sU2isBest]

Thanks all for your kind words. I really hope I can keep these things I have written in my heart so that next time I get upset, I can use them to help me cool off and gain perspective.

For those who didn't know, I've left FYM before because i couldn't keep perspective, and everything made me angry. That was just putting a bandaid on the problem - treating the symptoms, but ignoring the cause.This time, I want to make an effort to face my faults head on and improve, rather than run away.

 

[BonosSaint]

Christianity just moved up a notch in my opinion.

 

[Irvine511]

i don't have too much to add but that i appreciate, very much, 80's post and it makes me realize that what we have in common is far greater than what we do not.

thank you for your kind words.

i will only add that i tend to pounce on gay issues for two reasons: 1) i am still in the process of understanding and accepting myself, so this is a form of self-expression and identity creation ... i'm not like this in real life, and 2) i feel as if it is literally my job to be "out" and to put something of a human face on these issues in order to demonstrate, not just to the people who post but to the hundreds of lurkers who read but do not post, that gay people are people and that certain attitudes translate into actual political action that can have terrible consequences.

it can be hard to separate the person from the position, particularly on a forum like this where it's relatively anonymous, but 80's very honest and sincere post is helping me to do that.

thanks.

 

[u2bonogirl]

wow, this is one of the few threads in FYM that Ive read without getting saddened by people lashing out at one another
It would be nice if peoples faiths didnt tear them apart so much

 

[Ft. Worth Frog]

I would say this thread brings meaning to the lyrics "one, but not the same". Though we all have differences of opinions and beliefs, deep down, everybody has something in common. An Irvine, I agree...all of us say things differently here than we would in person. I guess it is the dehumanizing aspect of technology.

 

[nbcrusader]

a very healthy thread and not one easy to start!

Thank's 80's

 

[verte76]

Yeah, this is a cool thread.

 

[beli]

i appreciate, very much, 80's post and it makes me realize that what we have in common is far greater than what we do not.

Well said Irvine. And thank you for saying it.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

If only more threads, words, and conduct could be like this in this forum, maybe more people would visit it/want to stick around, etc. It would be a much more pleasant forum too.

It reminds me of a quote I just read from Bono in that book..

"But, you know, you don't have to be harmonious on everything -just one thing-to get along with someone"

Maybe that one thing includes everyone just taking a step back and trying to admit a fault/failing/overstatement/whatever or two

 

[Angela Harlem]

I agree with everything everyone else has said, but want to wish 80s well in his ongoing journey of accepting something which is very difficult for him. I'm no Christian (by 'name') but honestly believe that God and Jesus would wish more for acceptance and love of all fellow man and his actions, whether we see it's truth or not, we must accept we are made differently but are all equal.

I think love, respect and acceptance must even transcend religion and our limited knowledge of God's purpose, and be something every single one of us should strive for.

I wish you well, 80s.

 

[LadyRhia]

To swallow your pride and say that Iam sorry takes alot of courage.(((Hugs))) to you.

 

[verte76]

It can be very tough to accept an opinion that's drastically different from yours. Beliefs are an important motivating factor in your life, no matter what they are. When these are challenged it can be downright scary. I know this from personal experience; don't we all? It's so important to accept other people's viewpoints because we have to live and work with each other to constitute a society.

 

[LadyRhia]

It can be very tough to accept an opinion that's drastically different from yours. Beliefs are an important motivating factor in your life, no matter what they are. When these are challenged it can be downright scary. I know this from personal experience; don't we all? It's so important to accept other people's viewpoints because we have to live and work with each other to constitute a society.

Listening just listening takes so little effort,doesnt it.