For all the opponents of the death penalty....read this

[80sU2isBest]

So then you believe the Sermon on the Mount? Jesus telling people to forget about the "eye for an eye" and turn the other cheek. (Matthew) And to love our enemies? (Luke)

These passages suggest nonresistance, pacifism, and nonviolence.

Yes, they do, but on a personal level. They were not edicts against the government using the death penalty or fighting wars to defend its people.

And I'm someone who doesn't support the death penalty. Unlike many of my stances, my stance against the death penalty is not based on my religious beliefs. I can't find anything in the Bible that opposes the death penalty as instituted by the government.

The reason I am against the death penalty is because the system is far from perfect and innocent people do get executed.

 

[JCR]

Hey martha and justin, re-read bonovox's last post.

Last time I checked MAN creates and passes laws so geeezus keee-riiiiiste, leave god and jesus out of it. We live by the laws of the land not the ten commandments or by trite passages such as eye for an eye.
AchtungB. (glad you're still safe) I empathize with your passion, and me thinks that many opponents of the death penalty might change their minds if they become the victim(s) of heinous human behaviour. Personally, I oppose the death penalty EXCEPT in circumstances where it is 100% certain (ted bundy and gacy come to mind) that they are guilty. Non-existence is the only punishment serial killers understand. IN the case of these two deprived "parents" life without parole ought to suffice--the misery of their own company and living in a constant state of fear of getting shanked seems a just punishment under man's laws.

 

[U2DMfan]

Death penalty for involuntary manslaughter?

I'd have to say you couldn't justify it, period.

Malicious intent to take human life with absolutely no remorse?

Then you've got a pretty good case, IMO.

In this case, I think life in prison gets the job done.


I am not an opponent of the death penalty however, I do think there can be justifications that I have no moral qualms with. That said, I'd probably oppose 95% of the cases.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/08/22/national/main1925280.shtml

This guy might warrant a better discussion on the issue.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Hey martha and justin, re-read bonovox's last post.

Last time I checked MAN creates and passes laws so leave god and jesus out of it. We live by the laws of the land not the ten commandments or by trite passages such as eye for an eye.

Hey, this discussion is not about the legality of the death penalty. We all know that it's legal. This discussion is about the right/wrong of the death penalty, and as such, the injection of God into the subject is very appropriate.

 

[U2DMfan]

The reason I am against the death penalty is because the system is far from perfect and innocent people do get executed.

Which is perfectly understandable and the reason, well, among the reasons I oppose 90% (or more) of these cases.

However, what if the individual admits to the crime and expresses no remorse?

I can still see a legitimate opposition even in this case, for me personally I don't see it quite the same way, although I respect that opinion.

Life in prison isn't the cakewalk some would like to believe.

 

[JCR]

Hey, this discussion is about the legality of the death penalty. We all know that it's legal. This discussion is about the right/wrong of the death penalty, and as such, the injection of god into the subject is very appropriate.

I recognize that, it's just that martha and justin were talking in circles because they couldn't agree on a definition for a concept that may or may not exist. (They were no longer discussing the death penalty.)However, I would suggest that there is no need to inject god because god isn't the one determining the fate of persons facing the death penalty--we are: the lowly mortals.
Weren't we originally asking if these "parents" deserve the death penalty or not, rather than the overall rightness or wrongness of the death penalty?

 

[Justin24]

The low down is if a family member is murdered, you want to see that murderer dead. I know if one of my family members were brutally murdered I would be there to see that murderer die for what he did to my family. And when that person is executed by lethal injection, I would think you got a more humane way of dying.

 

[financeguy]

I just read this story on the CNN website and I'm still shaking and crying......

Read this story and then tell me that these animals don't deserve to be drawn and quartered, hung by their thumbs and slowly boiled in oil.......

Actually, I take that back..............death is TOO GOOD for these monsters!!!

++++++++++++++

CINCINNATI, Ohio (AP) -- The foster parents of a disabled 3-year-old boy wrapped him like a cocoon and left him for two days in a closet, where he died while they attended a family reunion, a prosecutor said.

The couple made several attempts to burn Marcus Fiesel's body and concocted an elaborate sham to cover up the boy's death, Hamilton County Prosecutor Joe Deters said Tuesday.

"Marcus was wrapped in a blanket and wrapped in tape with his arms behind him -- and this was not the first time," Deters said in announcing additional indictments against Liz and David Carroll Jr. (Watch why the prosecutor thinks the child was screaming for help -- 8:48)

A grand jury indicted the couple Monday on charges of involuntary manslaughter and child endangerment, and David Carroll, 35, on a charge of gross abuse of a corpse.

Tuesday's indictments included two counts each of inducing panic and one count each of making false alarms. Liz Carroll, 30, also was indicted on two counts of perjury for her testimony Monday to a grand jury, Deters said.

The Carrolls are scheduled for arraignment Wednesday; they remain jailed and information on their attorneys wasn't available.

Deters said the Carrolls left Marcus in the closet on August 4 when they went to a family reunion in Kentucky, and the boy was dead when they returned two days later.

A week later, Liz Carroll claimed Marcus wandered away from her at a suburban park, authorities said. Hundreds of volunteers joined authorities in the search for several days.

Authorities called off the official search on August 19. Liz Carroll pleaded for help finding Marcus at a news conference August 22 -- about the same time she and her husband were disposing of his body in a remote area of Brown County, Deters said.

"They went back repeatedly to burn his body -- two or three times," Deters said.

Authorities believe they have found the place where the body was burned, and they have brought back bags of evidence from the scene, Deters said.

He said the material will undergo DNA testing.

Physician, heal thyself.

 

[Angela Harlem]

My opposition to the death penalty doesn't mean I'm immune to the utter cruelty humans will inflict on another. However, I refuse to link myself to people like this couple and remove someone's life. I believe wholly in preserving life at all costs, unlike them. And unlike them, I will never bring harm or death to another person willingly.

 

[Justin24]

But your really not harming anyone because the person strapped down deserved it. If he was found 100% guilty.


All I know is now I am going to be considered very un"Christian" for what I said. Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Buddhism etc... Are all man made, you dont need that to be closer to God.

 

[Angela Harlem]

I dont believe it is my place to decide who deserves what. I'm just Anna, hardly capable of making a decision regarding someone's right to live. That's a decision beyond any one mere person.

 

[INDY500]

The reason I am against the death penalty is because the system is far from perfect and innocent people do get executed.

Name one.

 

[indra]

I'm sorry I don't understand. If you agree that the crime was severe, then why would you oppose the death penalty in this case?

Because Dr Teeth is better than they are. Stooping to their level puts you...well...at their level.



and on a totally different slant -- I wonder where in Brown County...I lived in Brown County until a little less than a year ago. Generally nuttin' happens there.

 

[martha]

Hey martha and justin, re-read bonovox's last post.

Hey JCR, Justin brought it up.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Name one.

Jesse Tafero, from Florida. Do you want the names of others?

Do you believe that innocent people are not executed? How do you think that 100% perfection of capital punishment system is possible?

If you do think that it's even posisble to execute an innocent person, why would you support the death penalty?

 

[Angela Harlem]

Name one.

http://www.law.northwestern.edu/depts/clinic/wrongful/executingtheinnocent.htm
James Adams (Florida)
Odell Barnes, Jr. (Texas)
James Beathard (Texas)
Brian K. Baldwin (Alabama)
Charles Anthony Boyd (Texas)
David Castillo (Texas)
Clyde Coleman (Texas)
Roger Keith Coleman (Virginia)
Willie Jasper Darden, Jr. (Florida)
Girvies Davis (Illinois)
Robert Nelson Drew (Texas)
James Otto Earhart (Texas)
Tony Farris (Texas)
Gary Graham (aka Shaka Sankofa) (Texas)
Lionel Torres Herrera (Texas)
Jerry Lee Hogue (Texas)
Jesse Jacobs (Texas)
Carl Johnson (Texas)
Malcolm Rent Johnson (Oklahoma)
Leo Jones (Florida)
Richard Wayne Jones (Texas)
Amos King (Florida)
Davis Losada (Texas)
Robert Madden (Texas)
Justin Lee May (Texas)
Frank Basil McFarland (Texas)
Larry Eugene Moon (Georgia)
Joseph O’Dell (Virginia)
Charles Rector (Texas)
Kenneth Ray Ransom (Texas)
Roy Michael Roberts (Missouri)
Cornelius Singleton (Alabama)
David Spence (Texas)
David Stoker (Texas)
Jesse J. Tafero (Florida)
Thomas M. Thompson (California)
Martin Vega (Texas)
Freddie Lee Wright (Alabama)

statistics on executions:
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/executions.php

Botched executions:
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=8&did=478



http://www.aclunc.org/deathpenalty/index.html

http://www.aclunc.org/deathpenalty/060502-chicago_trib_man_executed_disproven_evidence.pdf

http://www.stopwrongfulconvictions.org/

 

[indra]

Do you believe that innocent people are not executed? How do you think that 100% perfection of capital punishment system is possible?

If you do think that it's even posisble to execute an innocent person, why would you support the death penalty?

Hey 80's, this must be a sign of the impending apocalypse -- we agree.

 

[Angela Harlem]

Another list of inmates and their IQs:

Name State Race I.Q. Execution Date

1. Arthur F. Goode, III FL W 60-63 04/05/84

2. Ivon Ray Stanley GA B 62 07/12/84

3. James Dupree Henry FL B low 70s 09/20/84

4. Morris Odell Mason VA B 62-66 06/25/85

5. James Terry Roach SC W 69-70 01/10/86

6. Jerome Bowden GA B 59-65 06/24/86

7. Willie Celestine LA W (68-81) 77 07/20/87

8. John Brogdon LA W mild MR 07/30/87

9. Horace Dunkins AL B 65-69 07/14/89

10. Alton Waye VA B probable MR 08/30/89

11. Johnny Ray Anderson TX W 70 05/17/90

12. Dalton Prejean LA B 71-76 05/18/90

13. Ricky Ray Rector AR B MR from lobotomy 01/24/92

14. Johnny Frank Garrett TX W dual MR/MI 02/11/92

15. Billy Wayne White TX B 66-69 04/23/92

16. Nollie Lee Martin FL W dual MR/MI 05/12/92

17. Ricky Lee Grubbs MO W 72 10/21/92

18. Cornelius Singleton AL B 55-67 11/20/92

19. Robert Wayne Sawyer LA W 65-68 03/05/93

20. William Henry Hance GA B mild MR 03/31/94

21. Mario Marquez TX L 65 01/17/95

22. Willie Clisby AL B mild MR 04/28/95

23. Varnell Weeks AL B mild MR 05/12/95

24. Girvies Davis IL B low borderline MR 05/17/95

25. Sylvester Adams SC B 65-69 08/18/95

26. Barry Lee Fairchild AR B 60-63(note 08/31/95

27. Walter Milton Correll VA W 68 01/4/96

28. Luis Mata AZ L 68-70 08/22/96

29. John Earl Bush FL B low borderline MR 10/21/96

30. Frank Middleton SC B 68-69 11/22/96

31. Terry Washington TX B 58-69 05/06/97

32. Tony Mackall VA B 64 02/20/98

33. Reginald Powell MO B 65 02/25/98

34. Robert Carter TX B mild MR 05/18/98

35. Dwayne Allen Wright VA B MR/MI 10/14/98

36. Ronald Yeats VA W 70 04/29/99

37. Norman Lee Newsted OK W MR/MI 07/08/99

38. Raymond James Jones TX B MR 09/01/99

39. David R. Leisure MO W 74 09/01/99

40. Charles Anthony Boyd TX B 64 08/5/99

41. Willie Sullivan DE B 58-70 09/24/99

42. Oliver Cruz TX L 64-76 08/09/00

43. Wanda Jean Allen OK B 69 01/11/00

44. Robert Clayton OK W 68 03/01/01

 

[BVS]

However, what if the individual admits to the crime and expresses no remorse?

You mean like Benet's "killer"?

We all know admissions aren't even absolute.

 

[INDY500]

Jesse Tafero, from Florida.

Well, it made for an Oscar winning movie I guess, but in the eyes of the state of Florida he's not been exonerated. Which is my standard. While he might not be "sentenced to death" in today's world of DNA and other forensic evidence, that alone doesn't make him innocent.
I respect your decision to be against the death penalty. It's your reasoning I dispute. There's been over 1000 executions in the U.S. since 1977. You'd think there'd be an example a bit more convincing than Jesse Tafero.

Harlem, unfortunately your list contains the name Gary Graham so it's worthless. He may have been the cause célèbrefor Amnesty International and Hollywood liberals a few years ago but innocent...hell no.

"I've killed six people already; if you want to be number seven, do something stupid."
~ Gary Graham

http://www.clarkprosecutor.org/html/death/US/graham648.htm

 

[BVS]

The low down is if a family member is murdered, you want to see that murderer dead.

Once again you speaking for yourself, and not everyone. I know plenty of people who've stood up for life inprisonment of their family member's killer.

 

[BVS]

Name one.

Many we will never know, for the cases are automatically closed and family's can't afford to keep an ongoing private investigation. Even if they could most evidence is deemed inadmissable. So the logic of your retort is flawed.

 

[MacHat]

I oppose the death penalty for a few reasons:

- It doesn't work as a deterrent
- The system is flawed
- An eye for an eye makes both sides blind (paraphrasing a quote here)

Also, in my opinion it's revenge, not justice. Revenge eats away at everyone.

 

[BVS]

but in the eyes of the state of Florida he's not been exonerated. Which is my standard. [/url]

Wow, I don't know what to say, that has to be one of the weakest arguments I've ever seen in here. Because a system doesn't want to admit it's flawed you are going to go along and still call an innocent man guilty? Wow...

 

[INDY500]

Many we will never know, for the cases are automatically closed and family's can't afford to keep an ongoing private investigation. Even if they could most evidence is deemed inadmissable. So the logic of your retort is flawed.

The ACLU, Amnesty International, Democracy Now and other anti-death penalty organizations and individuals have gone through the details of every execution since 1977 looking for the 'slumdunk, no doubt about it' innocent victim of the death penalty to bolster their cause. Maybe they'll find it, maybe not. But there is one undeniable if slightly clichéd truth.

The recidivism rate of executed criminals is ZERO.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Hey 80's, this must be a sign of the impending apocalypse -- we agree.

I think you're probably not the only person who would be shocked at agreeing with me on this one.

And if you knew what I think about the judicial system, you might be even more shocked.

 

[Diemen]

The recidivism rate of executed criminals is ZERO.

That's got to be the weakest argument I've ever heard.

The recidivism rate of life without parole criminals is also zero.

And to Justin, you're presuming an AWFUL lot about how God works and what he wants us to do. Your anger at the crime is understandable, but your hell-bent desire for revenge is a little much.

 

[Justin24]

That's got to be the weakest argument I've ever heard.

The recidivism rate of life without parole criminals is also zero.

And to Justin, you're presuming an AWFUL lot about how God works and what he wants us to do. Your anger at the crime is understandable, but your hell-bent desire for revenge is a little much.

Is it wrong of me to question him??? I think he enjoys a challenge, not dethrone him, but on issues such as this. How am I hell bent on revenge?

 

[Earnie Shavers]

Justin, the want for revenge is perfectly understandable and perfectly human. I am most definitely anti-death penalty, but I know that if a loved one of mine was murdered, and the person that did it was standing in front of me, it would take a whole football team to physically restrain me. I say that, and at the same time completely and totally believe that the death penalty is archaic and wrong. You do know that the US is the only developed western nation that still has a death penalty right? Check out this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_death_penalty_worldwide

 

[Justin24]

I know the US is the only developed Western country that still practices it. Because the Majority of the people want it and find it a suitable form of punishment. I can't say the same about the people in Europe or other countries.