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Old 09-02-2006, 10:43 PM   #211
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Contradicting myself???????? Does it seem that way to you. Guess what they took a person freedom away so take there away and execute them for the crime of Murder.
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Old 09-02-2006, 10:46 PM   #212
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Contradicting myself???????? Does it seem that way to you. Guess what they took a person freedom away so take there away and execute them for the crime of Murder.
Read his post to find out what I think, because I agree with him.

And for the last part, I completely don't understand what you are saying. Take there away? Put them in prison in case you go back and find out you were wrong. You never know for sure.
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Old 09-02-2006, 10:48 PM   #213
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Philly I just want to tell you that I hope we can remain friends even though we have opposing views.
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Old 09-02-2006, 10:49 PM   #214
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Philly I just want to tell you that I hope we can remain friends even though we have opposing views.
Sure, I don't hold anything against anyone.
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Old 09-02-2006, 10:57 PM   #215
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If you think that the death penalty is the panacea for all the world's crime problems, you're going to be out of luck. Criminology has not shown the death penalty to be a deterrent to violent crime.

And while, yes, the suffering of the victim's family cannot be underestimated, you have neglected the suffering of the murderer's family, who may not look at the execution of their loved one lightly.

In history, there's, at least, one prominent, if overlooked, example of this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Lenin

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In May 1887, his eldest brother Alexander Ulyanov was hanged for participation in a plot (bomb attack) threatening the life of Tsar Alexander III. This radicalized Lenin. His official Soviet biographies have this event as central to his revolutionary exploits. A famous painting by Belousov, We will follow a different path, reprinted in millions of Soviet textbooks, depicted young Lenin and his mother grieving the loss of his elder brother. The phrase "We will follow a different path" meant that Lenin chose a Marxist approach for a popular revolution, instead of anarchistic, individualistic methods.
It does beg the question as to whether communism would have ever been succeeded in Russia had they let one man rot in prison, rather than executed as a martyr.

And, philosophically, that's how I see it. "No bad deed goes unpunished." So I don't see the point in serving one murder followed by another.

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Old 09-02-2006, 11:51 PM   #216
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Justin,

Execution is murder whatever spin you want to put on it.

But I sympathize. Should someone I love be murdered, I would easily flip the switch, give the lethal injection, knowing full well I was guilty of murder and not giving a flying fuck. Which is exactly why I shouldn't be allowed to make that decision. My desire for revenge shouldn't decide how society behaves.

You are right. The victim is almost nowhere in this equation. Except for the adnauseum coverage of the murders of select pretty white people, the victim is almost an afterthought, if that.
But I think you will also find the murderer is not much in the equation also. I suspect that many of the death penalty opponents wouldn't care one way or the other if the murderer was killed in the prison population or killed by a grieving loved one of the victim. It's not general sympathy for the killer. It is discomfort for the role of society in a death.

I followed two death penalty cases very closely--Gary Gilmore and Timothy McVeigh (2 OK looking white guys--I guess I have biases of my own). I believed both were guilty. I believed that the death penalty was appropriate in both cases. And you are right, I was given more information about them than any of their victims. (And I believe that we should be given information about those who are going to die in our name--even though it would be much easier on us. Sanctioned death should never be painless to those sanctioning it.) As their executions approached, I felt increasingly uncomfortable--knowing their last hours, knowing the time they would die--for the McVeigh case, being given running commentary on the radio--a play by play, if you will--of the actual execution. I felt sick.

The same way I feel sick when I hear about any execution carried out, no matter how heinous the crime. I feel nothing when they are sentenced to die. Just as the moment approaches, when the actual execution is carried out. It lessens us somehow.

God, I am conflicted I hear some of the stories of what these people did and I want to kill them myself. I read the story on which this thread was based (which ironically would have never carried a death penalty) and I grieve for that child and think no punishment could be enough for these people. I am a revenge seeker. I know that about myself. Perhaps I want my society to be better than I am.

I believe some of these human monsters deserve to die. I do not know that we deserve to kill them. I have no conflict about them. I only have conflict about us.

Just don't fool yourself that execution isn't murder. The blood is on your hands too. You'll have to be willing to accept that. Maybe you are.
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Old 09-03-2006, 12:21 AM   #217
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Quote:
Originally posted by Justin24
Contradicting myself???????? Does it seem that way to you.
It doesn't just seem that way, it is that way. It is a fact that you have contradicted yourself more than once in this thread.

Or did you not see my last reply to you, or Martha's replies to you, or phillyfan's replies to you....?
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Old 09-03-2006, 12:25 AM   #218
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Well I don't believe I contradict myself
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Old 09-03-2006, 12:25 AM   #219
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Here is Diemen's post in its entirety if you haven't gone back to read it:

Quote:
Originally posted by Justin24
I never called it soft??



Justin you are all over the place here. If your argument had any degree of sound logic, then maybe we would've gotten somewhere by now.


Quote:
Why not he took someone elses. I am not trying to play god.

...

HE played God HE TOOK SOMEONES LIFE!!!!!!!!!!




Quote:
Why shouldn't he suffer? Like he made a family or families suffer? He/she made his/her victims suffer.

...

IT IS NOT REVENGE!!!




Quote:
Originally posted by Diemen
My opposition to the death penalty does not mean I have a soft spot for criminals.

Originally posted by Justin24
Well it seems like it if u dont want a person that took 1 life or many lives.

...

You judge some one to a life sentence is still a form of execution.



I'll spare you the rest of your contradictions, but I have this question: If, as you say, a life sentence is still a form of execution, then how on Earth could I possibly be soft on crime if I support life sentences?

Look, if down in your gut you feel that murderers should be killed, then fine, that's what you feel. But when you can't even debate it without contradicting yourself left and right, it doesn't exactly lend your position much credibility.
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Old 09-03-2006, 12:35 AM   #220
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Quote:
Originally posted by phillyfan26
Here is Diemen's post in its entirety if you haven't gone back to read it:

Quote:

I'll spare you the rest of your contradictions, but I have this question: If, as you say, a life sentence is still a form of execution, then how on Earth could I possibly be soft on crime if I support life sentences?
Because this form of Execution is not suffering more like a crappy cruise.

And if blood is on my hands because a Murderer is executed then so be it. I will answer for it.
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Old 09-03-2006, 12:39 AM   #221
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Quote:
Originally posted by Justin24
Well I don't believe I contradict myself
How is this not contradiction:

Quote:
Why not he took someone elses. I am not trying to play god.

...

He played God HE TOOK SOMEONE'S LIFE!!!!!!!!!!

Look, I don't want to pick on you all thread long, but you can't have it both ways. You can't claim one thing and then, when it suits you or when you find it's not helping you that much, claim the complete opposite and expect to hold any credibility as a result.

If you can't logically defend your position, or even take into account the counter-arguments being presented, then you're not even debating, you're just ranting.
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Old 09-03-2006, 12:41 AM   #222
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Couldn't we say that Abortion is a type of murder since a life is being taken away. Yet many will agree that it's not since? Why not put the child up for adoption.

But You know what I wont tell a woman what to do.
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Old 09-03-2006, 12:44 AM   #223
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crys For crying out loud!

Quote:
Originally posted by Justin24


Because this form of Execution is not suffering more like a crappy cruise.

And if blood is on my hands because a Murderer is executed then so be it. I will answer for it.
A crappy cruise is similar to life in prison??

Justin, that's just pathetic.
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Old 09-03-2006, 12:45 AM   #224
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How can that be pathetic. There stuck in Jail like being at see with no where to go. They have ammenities, just like a cruise. And no one dies, unless you get food poisoning or the ship sinks.
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Old 09-03-2006, 12:47 AM   #225
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There stuck in Jail like being at see with no where to go.
Now you're just being lame.
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